Trunk Chop- Do I also Defoliate?

[BeebsBonsai]

Hello fellow Nuts,

I performed a trunk chop on a small trident over the weekend. I know it is late in the season for this work, but we are having a cooler spell, with cloud cover for the remainder of the work week before we blast back into summer temps. I didn't get around to this trunk chop in the craze of moving, and I have read some conflicting information about whether to chop at bud break or after tree's leaves have hardened, so I figured the best way to test is to try the post-harden method.

My question is this, with the post-harden method, is it also important to defoliate the tree near the cut site to spur new growth around the cut? My instincts tell me yes, because it will help guide new growth to the area cut, but I also know the tree is healing at the moment and doing this might harm the trees ability to heal the wound. It is a young tree, no more than two years old. I left about 8 inches of leafed trunk below the cut site just in case the codit response killed off a few inches below the cut. I made the cut Saturday and have yet to see bud push or break in the surrounding area. How long before I should be alarmed?

Questions Summary:

1.) Do I defoilate the area to guide the tree into pushing new growth?
2.) How long until I should see new growth?
3.) Should I be worried

(Note: I am protecting the tree from wind and giving it full morning sun and then shade in the afternoon currently. In a week or so, I plan to gradually introduce it back to full sun.

 

[Gustavo Martins]

I can only tell you what I did last year. Trunk chopped a trident down to a lower branch in mid June. Wired the branch up to form the new leader. Left untouched the rest of the growing season. It grew great. Scar is healing alright, although I may need to rework it cause it's not that flush with the trunk. Should have made the scar deeper when chopped.

 

[A. Gorilla]

I was under the impression (possibly mistaken, since I'm no expert on anything, much less maples), but isn't this the worst possible time to trunk chop? The current leaves represent all of last year's stored energy. Now the leaves are trying to recoup the energy for winter storage again.

If you want a strong push for developmental TRUNK growth, where is this energy going to come from?

Someone please correct me where I'm wrong.

 

[Gustavo Martins]

I was under the impression (possibly mistaken, since I'm no expert on anything, much less maples), but isn't this the worst possible time to trunk chop? The current leaves represent all of last year's stored energy. Now the leaves are trying to recoup the energy for winter storage again.

If you want a strong push for developmental TRUNK growth, where is this energy going to come from?

Someone please correct me where I'm wrong.

Maybe. But... There's still a long growing season ahead, at least for me.

 

[BeebsBonsai]

I was under the impression (possibly mistaken, since I'm no expert on anything, much less maples), but isn't this the worst possible time to trunk chop? The current leaves represent all of last year's stored energy. Now the leaves are trying to recoup the energy for winter storage again.

If you want a strong push for developmental TRUNK growth, where is this energy going to come from?

Someone please correct me where I'm wrong.

Just to follow up here with what I have hear that contradicts this is the worst time. The key here is the hardening off of the leaves. And again, I am not an expert either, just repeating what I have read, I believe here even, although I can't remember where.

Anyway, the post-hardening theory, as posited, allows the tree enough time to recoup it's energy prior to making the chop. When the leaves have hardened, the tree is in a positive energy state. The leaves have been hardened off for about three weeks now, during which time, the tree was allowed to regain the energy in the roots that it spent on the first flush. By waiting until the first flush has hardened off, the theory goes that the tree is ready to push it's second flush. This is why June is a good time to do a partial defoliation to cause the tree to push another flush of growth.

That's the theory as I have heard it. I've even hear some people say that the post-flush is equally as good a time. I don't necessarily buy that. But, I didn't get around to it and figured I would test if it works. Anybody else have a position on the bud push vs post-harden trunk chop debate?

 

[Dav4]

I was under the impression (possibly mistaken, since I'm no expert on anything, much less maples), but isn't this the worst possible time to trunk chop? The current leaves represent all of last year's stored energy. Now the leaves are trying to recoup the energy for winter storage again.

If you want a strong push for developmental TRUNK growth, where is this energy going to come from?

Someone please correct me where I'm wrong.

A chop mid summer, after the tree has had some time to build up steam, would be better...... but it's a trident, so...

 

[BeebsBonsai]

I can only tell you what I did last year. Trunk chopped a trident down to a lower branch in mid June. Wired the branch up to form the new leader. Left untouched the rest of the growing season. It grew great. Scar is healing alright, although I may need to rework it cause it's not that flush with the trunk. Should have made the scar deeper when chopped.

This is good news to hear. Hopefully i have the same response. Unless I hear contrary opinions, I will leave it untouched and check it's progress over the next few weeks.

 

[BeebsBonsai]

A chop mid summer, after the tree has had some time to build up steam, would be better...... but it's a trident, so...

Dav4, do you think a partial defoliation at this time is a good idea? Or let it grow?

Also, so like a July trunk chop if I use this method in the future?

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

What is the goal of defoliating in this case?
If theres a negative energy state, that's it. The tree is done for without leaves.
If there's a positive state, you aim is to pop buds on the trunk instead of in between the leaves? I don't see how defoliation would help that, because the developing and dormant buds are still there, even without the leaves.
I am no expert on maples, I never had a single one, but I'd like to wrap my head around the process behind defoliation combined with chopping.

 

[BeebsBonsai]

What is the goal of defoliating in this case?
If theres a negative energy state, that's it. The tree is done for without leaves.
If there's a positive state, you aim is to pop buds on the trunk instead of in between the leaves? I don't see how defoliation would help that, because the developing and dormant buds are still there, even without the leaves.
I am no expert on maples, I never had a single one, but I'd like to wrap my head around the process behind defoliation combined with chopping.

Well, I technically don't really have branching yet, so my goal is two-fold. 1.) begin the process of developing taper in this very young tree. And 2.) Get extension from a pair of lower shoots on the tree to get a sacrifice branch started low on the trunk, while also starting the first bit of trunk movement from the second leader (future trunk). Then in subsequent years, leave the sacrifice branch to grow and build thickness, and let the shoot opposite grow as my trunk.

 

[papymandarin]

for me you are ok doing it now given you said you did it several weeks after the leaves matured, for the rest do as you would do in a normal situation, leave what you want to thicken, cut back what you want to ramify, i don't think defoliation is necessary.
One thing though, you said you expect bud popping from "around" the cut, don't forget it's a maple, so buds will not appear from the cut but from the node(s) below the cut

 

[papymandarin]

and for me now is the best time to hard cut maples, the tree still has plenty of time to regrow, it's full of strengh from the first growth, it will start healing immediately and is much less at risk of die back or fungal/bacterial infection of the wound than in early spring or automn

 

[BeebsBonsai]

for me you are ok doing it now given you said you did it several weeks after the leaves matured, for the rest do as you would do in a normal situation, leave what you want to thicken, cut back what you want to ramify, i don't think defoliation is necessary.
One thing though, you said you expect bud popping from "around" the cut, don't forget it's a maple, so buds will not appear from the cut but from the node(s) below the cut

Papy,

Yes, I did mean in the area, not exactly the cut, sorry that was a contextual error there. Bascially, what I had was a five foot tall straight twig with one set of branches coming off all the way at the top. Being a young tree, there were leaves all up and down the "trunk". I cut to a point about an inch above a node with two very strong leaves growing from it, and with about 8 inches of leaves growing off the trunk below. My only worry is that without defoliating the apical leaves, the tree will not be spurred to grow new leaders. Is this just me being a worry wart? Or would defoliating that pair stimulate new growth and allow those two stems to grow out as leaders?

 

[papymandarin]

no defoliation is not needed for that, you don't need to defoliate for your tree to grow new shoots from the leaves when you do a "regular" cut back of shoots. It's the cutting back (reduction of global volume and suppression of the apical buds) that provokes the new growth, not the removal of leaves.
And the shoots from these now upper leaves will be the strongest....apical dominance! Deoliation helps on trees more advanced in their building to avoid dying back of internal shoots and allow easier "during season" wiring, but it's not what pushes the tree to make new shoots

 

[BeebsBonsai]

no defoliation is not needed for that, you don't need to defoliate for your tree to grow new shoots from the leaves when you do a "regular" cut back of shoots. It's the cutting back (reduction of global volume and suppression of the apical buds) that provokes the new growth, not the removal of leaves.
And the shoots from these now upper leaves will be the strongest....apical dominance! Deoliation helps on trees more advanced in their building to avoid dying back of internal shoots and allow easier "during season" wiring, but it's not what pushes the tree to make new shoots

Papy,

Thanks much. I appreciate it. I get jumpy and nervous when I make moves like this. i tend to get scared that my work is going to harm the tree then do too much to compensate. I have only been doing this for a year and a half. I will post pics when the tree begins to extend. How long should that take? I haven't seen any new growth, but its only been two cloudy days. so I don't know if I should be expecting it yet

 

[papymandarin]

i'd say 1-3 weeks. For future work, know that at this time of year (provided you let the branch grow freely from bud break) you can also cut a branch back even leaving no leaves or apparent buds on it, it will grow back with nearly no risk of die back (risk of die back is much stronger if you do that in early spring when a "sap flow" is not yet established to the branch). For such cut you can have a look at the topic of connordash about his japanese maple (the time is now for this maple or something like that). He cut everything leaving just the trunk and the first bare nodes of the branches, now he has buds popping everywhere.

 

[BeebsBonsai]

i'd say 1-3 weeks. For future work, know that at this time of year (provided you let the branch grow freely from bud break) you can also cut a branch back even leaving no leaves or apparent buds on it, it will grow back with nearly no risk of die back (risk of die back is much stronger if you do that in early spring when a "sap flow" is not yet established to the branch). For such cut you can have a look at the topic of connordash about his japanese maple (the time is now for this maple or something like that). He cut everything leaving just the trunk and the first bare nodes of the branches, now he has buds popping everywhere.

Papy,

Note taken. And I do remember that post. I will keep you posted on how this little guy does post chop. Hopefully I see some movement in the next month. And strong movement.

 

[Dav4]

Dav4, do you think a partial defoliation at this time is a good idea? Or let it grow?

Also, so like a July trunk chop if I use this method in the future?

Leave the leaves and let it grow

 

[BeebsBonsai]

Leave the leaves and let it grow

Will do. Will post pics of this little guy once he starts extending again. Thanks for all the help everyone. I hope the cutting I took of the portion I cut off takes as well. getting two trees from one as a beginner is always nice.