RichKid
Shohin
At what point is a tree to large to be chopped? For one growing in the woods, would it be better to chop it and leave it in the ground for a while, or to collect it and then chop it?
Trunk Chopping
- Thread starter RichKid
- Start date
Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
Depends on the tree variety. Some will bud back...others won't.
If you are talking about same year, chop at dig time.
If you can wait another year...work on the roots (cut a few around the root ball...think bonsai pot size
) and let them produce tiny roots instead. Still chop the top at collection...let the top induce root growth instead.
If you are talking about same year, chop at dig time.
If you can wait another year...work on the roots (cut a few around the root ball...think bonsai pot size
) and let them produce tiny roots instead. Still chop the top at collection...let the top induce root growth instead.RichKid
Shohin
what would make success less likely, outside of species of course, height or girth of the tree? I noticed some decent sized pines and other deciduous material out in the woods. Maybe fifteen to twenty feet tall. Decent sized trunks. Was thinking maybe they are too big but I've never tried anything like that. I usually collect small stuff no bigger than a few feet tops.
GrimLore
Bonsai Nut alumnus... we miss you
You should keep in mind the way the soil is and how it can help you. Here I can move most any hardwood 10-15ft with very little effort other then charging the battery on the backhoe and single scoop them. On the not good side storms like Sandy rip trees out pretty easy. I find messing with any conifer usually does not work out btw...
RichKid
Shohin
Yeah I've tired with some spruce a few times, all resulted in death. I was thinking maybe it was the moving time. I'm personally not really attracted to conifers anyway, but I thought I would just try to expand my collection and give myself some things to work on. Unfortunately I don't have a backhoe! LOL But I do have a strong young back! I would think I'd be digging a lot of these which is why I would want to reduce the top because obviously handling a 15 or 20 foot tree could be cumbersome, not to mention transporting in an SUV.
Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
Pines...most likely amount (percentage) of foliage remaining after the chop.
RichKid
Shohin
What is the likely hood of back budding on a pine? These are the regular pines you find in woods, also called the Pine Barrens, of southern NJ.
Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
From what I've read...very unlikely. A total top off will most likely spell death to the tree.
RichKid
Shohin
If I left say a few branches, it would look very sparse. Would it ever fill in or 'thicken up'?
GrimLore
Bonsai Nut alumnus... we miss you
I agree - they are far more sensitive at least the one's I killed here a few years ago. Even the seedings require very special care.
RichKid
Shohin
I probably wont even bother for now! Maybe as my skill increases. I prefer deciduous anyway!
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Removing all green growth from 99 percent of all conifer species kills them (there are a few exceptions, like Pitch Pine pinus rigida. The species does live in the NJ barrens, but so do about three or four other species. You have to know what to look for and how to collect them (collecting a pine is a bit tougher than deciduous trees, as they require more roots on collection)
Theoretically, ANY sized deciduous tree can be trunk chopped into a bonsai-sized frame. Size has no real bearing on how deciduous trees (and conifers to a certain extent) recover, as trees have evolved to respond to injury by pushing new growth BELOW or AROUND wounds.
Artistically and practically, however, the size limit for bonsai is probably around 12" in diameter. Much larger than that and you face long periods simply growing out a new leader to match up with the lower trunk, not to mention hauling a stump that size with an associated root mass out of the woods/swamp/mountains/next door neighbor's yard will probably give you a hernia.
As an example of how things mostly go in digging a tree--I "collected" a 35 foot bald cypress (a decidous conifer that can be treated like a deciduous species as it will backbud vigorously on old wood from anywhere on the trunk) from a landscape nursery's retaining wall last summer. I trunk-chopped it at the nursery to 3 feet. With the help of two nursery workers, I grubbed about a 200 lbs root mass out of the ground (took two hours) and immediately reduced that root mass to about 30 lbs--a drastic reduction that will kill most species, but BC can easily recover from such treatment. I chucked it in the truck, drove home, planted it in a 30 gallon nursery container. It's doing fine.
Theoretically, ANY sized deciduous tree can be trunk chopped into a bonsai-sized frame. Size has no real bearing on how deciduous trees (and conifers to a certain extent) recover, as trees have evolved to respond to injury by pushing new growth BELOW or AROUND wounds.
Artistically and practically, however, the size limit for bonsai is probably around 12" in diameter. Much larger than that and you face long periods simply growing out a new leader to match up with the lower trunk, not to mention hauling a stump that size with an associated root mass out of the woods/swamp/mountains/next door neighbor's yard will probably give you a hernia.
As an example of how things mostly go in digging a tree--I "collected" a 35 foot bald cypress (a decidous conifer that can be treated like a deciduous species as it will backbud vigorously on old wood from anywhere on the trunk) from a landscape nursery's retaining wall last summer. I trunk-chopped it at the nursery to 3 feet. With the help of two nursery workers, I grubbed about a 200 lbs root mass out of the ground (took two hours) and immediately reduced that root mass to about 30 lbs--a drastic reduction that will kill most species, but BC can easily recover from such treatment. I chucked it in the truck, drove home, planted it in a 30 gallon nursery container. It's doing fine.
It might depend on the species. I asked a friend a similar question as my parents' property has a lot of american hornbeam growing on it. I figured that I could chop them, keep them in the ground, and collect them a year or two later after they had had a chance to back bud and develop new leaders. Apparently american hornbeam do not respond very well to this, so it was recommended to me to chop and dig at the same time.
berobinson82
Omono
Can anyone confirm this? Not that I don't believe ya, but I don't want to believe ya.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Mike is right. When I first started collecting, I chopped Carolina hornbeam and left them in place. They mostly died. I suspect it's because they are understory trees that have spent their lives outcompeting their neighboring trees. Once their hard-won (growing in the shadows of larger trees isn't easy) foliage-bearing branches are taken, they can't effectively support themselves with spindly new growth. The reaction can vary in degree, depending, I think on location. The more light, the more chance the tree has...I've also seen substantial trunk death in some instances on hornbeam left in-ground after a chop.
Seeing those trees die made me see that they should be taken all at once, trunk chop, root reduction, removal ALL AT ONCE. This drastic "reset" allows them to develop root growth AND top growth at the same time, without one suffering at the expense of the other...
Seeing those trees die made me see that they should be taken all at once, trunk chop, root reduction, removal ALL AT ONCE. This drastic "reset" allows them to develop root growth AND top growth at the same time, without one suffering at the expense of the other...
berobinson82
Omono
Ask and ye shall receive. Looks like I've made a mistake last weekend. I hope it's not too late to correct it. I was under the impression that understory trees were fine for a year. Perhaps that was our discussion about beech though. I left a beech and it did well, the hornbeam that I... OH MY! Looks like an emergency removal is in order, stat!
Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
"Looks like I've made a mistake last weekend. I hope it's not too late to correct it. I was under the impression that understory trees were fine for a year."
It may, or may not, be a mistake. The tree might be fine. In my experience the majority of trees I trunk chopped and left in the ground kicked off. Some lived.
At this point -- it is VERY early for collection in these parts -- the tree isn't going to do much anyway in ground or in a container. A week isn't going to make much difference.
It may, or may not, be a mistake. The tree might be fine. In my experience the majority of trees I trunk chopped and left in the ground kicked off. Some lived.
At this point -- it is VERY early for collection in these parts -- the tree isn't going to do much anyway in ground or in a container. A week isn't going to make much difference.
RichKid
Shohin
So Rock, outside of the conifers and evergreens, I should be good chopping and digging most deciduous material?
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
"I should be good chopping and digging most deciduous material?"
Yeah, but if you haven't done this before, expect some losses. All this can depend on species and the best time to collect. In Pennsylvania, it's a bit too early to be collecting much. Besides the frozen soil making the digging job ten times harder and more damaging on the roots, unless you have a place to store the collected trees that won't freeze, it's best to wait until March...
Yeah, but if you haven't done this before, expect some losses. All this can depend on species and the best time to collect. In Pennsylvania, it's a bit too early to be collecting much. Besides the frozen soil making the digging job ten times harder and more damaging on the roots, unless you have a place to store the collected trees that won't freeze, it's best to wait until March...
