Trying out some trees for a shohin didplay

AaronThomas

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The two tree choices in the middle (sorry cant tell on the phone what they are) are stunning... even the stands suit them well.
Hope you post pics with the olive in the azaleas place.... would love to see.
 

Adair M

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The two tree choices in the middle (sorry cant tell on the phone what they are) are stunning... even the stands suit them well.
Hope you post pics with the olive in the azaleas place.... would love to see.
Aaron the Middle Left is a root over rock Trident. The Middle Right is a Hinoki Cypress. The Bottom Right is a zelkova. The zelkova is very nice, just defoliated, it will be all grown back out by the National's.
 

AaronThomas

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Aaron the Middle Left is a root over rock Trident. The Middle Right is a Hinoki Cypress. The Bottom Right is a zelkova. The zelkova is very nice, just defoliated, it will be all grown back out by the National's.
Very impressive! Very inspiring! Love the root over rock maple… I wish I could do maples here but it's just too darn hot !
 

Brian Van Fleet

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Constructive feedback is always welcome!
I think this is a good display, but to be as critical as possible for the sake of helping create the best display, here is my feedback.

Overall, this is a well-considered selection for movement. The directionality of the trees mostly pulls my eye through the display. The similar, stacked, upright Zelkova and hinoki trunks form a bit of a vertical barrier, however.

The full display lacks austerity. Each tree individually is good. They play nicely together, but somehow the full display should be quieter. The exposed roots of the JRP and ROR is a bit busy; in person it could be a cool theme, but it's not yet subtle. Maybe tightening up the foliage overall will help. When the ROR is full, the hinoki fills in, and the JBP finishes, it may no longer be an issue.

Trees: they are all a bit “loose” in my eye. I love the top shelf pine; perfect trunk, movement, and pot. But the canopy is too big by 1/3. Definitely not something for this show, but later. Similar for the hinoki. You could tighten up the Zelkova before the show, but then you’d lose some of the continuity among the others. The JRP is a bit redundant, and I could wish for only 1 pine in the mix.

Pots: they are mostly complimentary and sufficiently varied. Yellow pot with hinoki is great, unexpected, and an exciting pop of color. The Zelkova and ROR pot are close in color, but maybe only in the photo. I wish you could swap the ROR pot for a 5-color sometsuke. The JRP pot should be swapped for something with more detail, and with a burnished look.

Stands: the JBP stand is slightly too small for the foliage, but just right for the pot. The ROR stand is nice. I wonder if one of the stands with sturdier feet would better visually support the rock, but I do like the stand overall, it works. The hinoki stand is hard to get past. It is too tall, too narrow, and makes the tree seem unstable atop it. I would argue it doesn't need a stand at all, but one of those wider jiita I see in the bottom of the stack may work. The box itself is beautiful, as are each of the individual stands.

Accent: Agreed with the other poster who said that the accent should be smaller. Since that isn't part of the display, I'd only mention that something about half that size would be good, but if you're accenting the JRP, do it more subtly. Currently, the crescent has its back to the rest of the display, overly deferential to the JRP. Maybe a small round would be more inclusive.

Look forward to seeing the final product. Good job Adair.
 

Adair M

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Here's an alternative setup:

image.jpeg

Brian, thanks, well thought out comments!

The primary objective of this test is to see how the trees/pots/complement each other.

The zelkova and trident pots are quite different. Zelkova pot is a white rectangle with heavy patina. Trident is blue oval. I could put the trident in a 5 color Gekku. I'd do that right before the show.

Agree about the JBP. It has great bark. Just been decandled, so it should be much thicker by the show. It's been detail wired abut since the pictures were taken to tighten it up some. But I do wish it was tighter. But you have to work with what you've got.

The red pine hadn't been decandled when the picture was taken. The new foliage will MUCH shorter at showtime. On a shorter stand.

The ROR is showing mostly rock, so I don't think it competes with the exposed roots of the JRP. The trident has just been cut back. And defoliated. It may get another before the show.

Same with the zelkova.

All the trees look "loose" because they are! You have to let them grow out. So you can cut back. They're getting prepped to look good in mid September, not now.

The olive I plan to use is in California. I'll pot up an azalea just in case I can't get the olive sent.

This arrangement has the zelkova and the Hinoki standing side by side. Too straight, I think. The Hinoki moves to the left. Perhaps more noticeable in person.

Still a project in progress!

Edited to add, when cleaned up and oiled, the JRP pot looks burnished.
 

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@Adair M love the taper or the tree in the yellow pot. Guessing on a huge leap zelkova. The stand almost looks like it was perfectly made for that set of trees.
 
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I will not critique the trees just the composition as a whole...

Usually with just a tiered stand by itself, the direction of the trees are picked and placed within the display so that they point towards the center. With the addition of the extra tree and stand... It asks the viewer to now consider the tiered stand as not just a single entity, but now part of a overall composition. So, in this case... it almost begs that the trees within the tiered shelf point to the additional tree, and in return... the additional tree points back towards the tiered shelf. The tree in the yellow pot does not follow this, nor does the bottom left tree which I believe you said was to be replaced.

With the additional tree, one thing I think that has been missed regarding the tree and its stand with some of the comments being made... Is the question of its position within the overall display. If you look at where it is placed in relation to the tiered shelf as to front and back of the table... it has been placed in front of the tiered shelf. This actually establishes the tree as the more dominate one out of all the trees, it is first, because it is the closest to the viewer. Yet, it holds the least amount of weight? This optically will always appear wrong and unbalanced to a viewer, due to the fact that this is not how objects in life appear to us... Objects nearest to us, always hold the most weight due to the fact that they are close, and an objects weight will diminishes as objects go away from us. When an object that is further away has more weight, than that of one close... it creates an optical illusion, and makes the object further away feel closer to us than the object that actually is. If you are placing a tree in front of other trees, this tree needs to feel as though it is in front, or what's the point? Heavier stand might help? What's interesting to note is that some of the comments here have actually said the opposite... that the additional tree competes with the tiered shelf and its trees. Which points out the confusion... the tiered shelf has been placed behind, yet it feels as though it is more dominate than the tree in front. Proving an optical illusion is at play.

One last thing which deals with line and weight of objects... the pot the additional tree is in has almost too much real estate for the tree. So, they clash... What I mean by this is that the tree has a lot going on... and the pot is very plain. What actually ends up happening visually is that the pot ends up feeling very heavy, and in this case perhaps too heavy really for the tree. There is too much of one surface to look at with no division or broken lines. This same pot with a single band going across the middle might resolve this issue.
 
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Adair M

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I will not critique the trees just the composition as a whole...

Usually with just a tiered stand by itself, the direction of the trees are picked and placed within the display so that they point towards the center. With the addition of the extra tree and stand... It asks the viewer to now consider the tiered stand as not just a single entity, but now part of a overall composition. So, in this case... it almost begs that the trees within the tiered shelf point to the additional tree, and in return... the additional tree points back towards the tiered shelf. The tree in the yellow pot does not follow this, nor does the bottom left tree which I believe you said was to be replaced.

With the additional tree, one thing I think that has been missed regarding the tree and its stand with some of the comments being made... Is the question of its position within the overall display. If you look at where it is placed in relation to the tiered shelf as to front and back of the table... it has been placed in front of the tiered shelf. This actually establishes the tree as the more dominate one out of all the trees, it is first, because it is the closest to the viewer. Yet, it holds the least amount of weight? This optically will always appear wrong and unbalanced to a viewer, due to the fact that this is not how objects in life appear to us... Objects nearest to us, always hold the most weight due to the fact that they are close, and an objects weight will diminishes as objects go away from us. When an object that is further away has more weight, than that of one close... it creates an optical illusion, and makes the object further away feel closer to us than the object that actually is. If you are placing a tree in front of other trees, this tree needs to feel as though it is in front, or what's the point? Heavier stand might help? What's interesting to note is that some of the comments here have actually said the opposite... that the additional tree competes with the tiered shelf and its trees. Which points out the confusion... the tiered shelf has been placed behind, yet it feels as though it is more dominate than the tree in front. Proving an optical illusion is at play.

One last thing which deals with line and weight of objects... the pot the additional tree is in has almost too much real estate for the tree. So, they clash... What I mean by this is that the tree has a lot going on... and the pot is very plain. What actually ends up happening visually is that the pot ends up feeling very heavy, and in this case perhaps too heavy really for the tree. There is too much of one surface to look at with no division or broken lines. This same pot with a single band going across the middle might resolve this issue.
Interesting comments, sawgrass!

The way Diasaku Nomoto explained 7 point display to me follows. Diasaku is on the Board of Directors of the Nippon Shohin Society, so he knows a bit about shohin display! But, even before I begin, Diasaku says that even the "guidelines" that I am about to attempt to explain are just guidelines and any of them can be broken...

The box represents the mountain. Ideally, trees placed in and in the box correspond to where they live relative to the mountain. You should place a tree that lines in a lowland swamp on the bottom rather than the upper levels, for example.

You can make a display of just the box. And an accent. But really, the box is supposed to have a secondary tree, outside the box. This secondary tree represents another mountain, not as big as the first, and the space between the box and the secondary tree is the Valley. The height of the stand of the secondary gives an impression to the steepness of the valley.

Now, the most important trees in the entire composition are as follows: the tree on the top of the box is most important. Then the next most important tree is the off stand tree! The third is the bottom tree opposite the off stand tree. These three make up the unequal length triangle that provides the foundation of all bonsai display.

Ok, notice that the box stand has a drop shelf in the middle, and one shelf on the bottom is raised. This puts in movement into the display. The movement of the box is supposed to match the movement of the main tree, on top of the box.

My JBP on top moves to the right. So, the box must have movement to the right, and the secondary tree must be placed to the right. The tree placed on top of the box should be an informal upright, not a formal upright. Why? No movement to a FU. Trees growing on top of the mountain would be subjected to harsh conditions (winds, snows,etc) which would affect the tree. FUs would occur lower down in the valley under more sheltered conditions. Cascades occur more on the side of the mountain, do they are good for the middle layer, or as the off stand tree.

But, the most important tree is the tree on top of the box. ALL the other trees in the display should direct their movement towards it. NOT the off box tree as Sawgrass suggested. The trees within the box should direct their movement towards the tree on top of the box. Anything else invokes discord. The only aspect that should be directed towards the off box tree is the accent plant. The off box tree is the second most important tree. So it deserves a bit of respect, the accent plant gives it some. Everything else is about the main tree on top of the box.

More later..,
 

Adair M

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Remember when I said the guidelines can be broken? Well... The movement thing is really important. Breaking that one would disrupt the overall flow, disrupt the harmony, and introduce discord.

(Now, I know that's what some would say Art is...that's great discussion fodder... For another thread. Let's keep this one focused on Classical Shohin display. Which is pretty complex all by itself!)
 
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Remember when I said the guidelines can be broken? Well... The movement thing is really important. Breaking that one would disrupt the overall flow, disrupt the harmony, and introduce discord.

(Now, I know that's what some would say Art is...that's great discussion fodder... For another thread. Let's keep this one focused on Classical Shohin display. Which is pretty complex all by itself!)
Thanks for posting this info, and the traditional teachings and thoughts behind them. Let, me first state that I understand them fully and I am well aware of what they are, however there are obviously going to be folks that do not, so I think it is great that this is posted for them to learn from and you have set up and written your post on a way that is very easy to come to terms with and understand.

With that said, I disagree with the traditional approach and do so not on a just because approach or because I think it should be something different. Instead, I am taking into account an actual science, that examines the way in which people observe items, that researchers have spent billions of dollars on studying in an attempt to better sell products in the form of advertisement, in order to reach their targeted audience. Now, I am not saying the traditional approach is wrong... but I do think it worth examining and would love to have a duscussion with the individual you mentioned who explained the set up as you have described it... and pick his brain! Would be interesting to examine the differences and see...

As I have mentioned before, I have spent the good majority of my life working in the Film Industry, in TV, as well as in Animation and adrvertisement. All of which are directly geared at presentation... and how what an audience is shown and how this is shown, can have drastically different outcomes in the way they react to the product.

First rule one learns is that an audiences attention span is often very short.. why because people are busy, they have things to do... In advertisement, it is said that within the first 10 seconds an individual looks at an item, they have already made up their mind over whether or not they like it or not, and if they want to see more. Everything after this is then all geared towards then keeping the individual's attention, and from keeping them moving on...

Which is why I mentioned what I did with my critique. Flow is everything! If something appears odd, breaks the flow, or takes the flow to another product, you have broken the chain of keeping the attention span of the viewer and they move on... which is not what you want to have happen, and thus why I said I disagree with the traditional thought regarding display.

Yes, in a single display of a tiered shelf, where this is the only thing in the display... the top tree is the most important. I would agree for the most part that the trees within it should point to the top tree, but also would add that I think it is important that they also point to the center, so as to form an imaginary circle that keeps a viewer's eye continually focus on and moving within the display. Any tree that points outward... automatically breaks this cycle and sends the viewer's attention onto the next display. Which is not what you want to happen, seeing they stop looking at your work. A break in the cycle, tells a viewer that they have reached the end, seen all they need to see and it is now time to go.

With the addition of the extra tree and accent plant, the rules of the display now need to work with it as well, seeing now all of this is part of the display and is what you want the viewer's attention to be confined within. In the traditional guides as you have written and have been come to understand as being correct... they, as I interpret them... consider really the two, this being the teired shelf and the additional tree/accent plant as two separate entities really and that they should be considered as such. With the teired shelf being more dominate and the additional tree being almost an after thought... I think this is incorrect... it separates the two and almost makes them two totally different displays instead of just one.

Which is why I stated what I did with the critique... I think they should work as a single unit. If one considers them so... then the goal would be to consider how the flow moves the viewer's eye around the whole composition. So, in this instance, I think it is critical then that the trees in the teired shelf are in a direction that ultimately points towards the additional tree, and vice versa with the additional tree, as well as the accent plant which I did not mention in my critique. Really in this instance, it is my view that the accent plant should not conform to the traditional thought of facing the additional tree, but instead should face the teired shelf, and completing the circle of the flow within the overall composition.

Lastly, I stated that I felt the additional tree should hold more weight because of where the tree has been placed within the composition... It is placed in front of the teired shelf within the table. Now, I understand that this goes against the view of traditional teachings, but why I still feel this is incorrect, is due to the logic of how the viewer understands in reality the world around them... this is to say that objects closer to them will always hold more weight than objects further away, in a correct perspective. This is of course if you are asking the viewer to come to terms with the notion that the trees should be of a relatively similar size in comparison. By this I mean, yes an accent plant placed in front is commonly understood that it is smaller in comparison to a tree.

I will give an example of how this works... as well as support to what I am suggesting. In the first picture you posted, the image is taken from a view that really somehow gives the viewer a very flat perspective... this is probably due to lens selection the camera has choosen, and the further distance away from the display at which the picture was taken. The image has been flattened out and really everything appears to be within the same plane. The teired shelf holds more weight mainly because it has more going on and more to look at, so it is the dominate feature.

Now, in the second picture you posted, clearly you were closer to the display and the picture was taken with a wider lens... in this picture the photo has much more depth. One sees a real difference between what is placed in front and what is placed behind, and everything does not appear on the same plane. In this picture the additional tree appears to hold more weight, and appears to be as it should appear, more dominate. Why? Because it is what we would normally expect to happen with an object of being relatively of equal size... being closer to us. For this is how every day objects appear in life to us and how we see in perspective.

Sorry, know this is a long read... and folks who like sound-bytes are probably rolling their eyes... lol! But, thought it worth adding to the conversation. Adair if you get a chance, pass along this to the gentleman you mentioned and ask him his veiws regarding it. Again, not trying to say anyone is wrong, your display is awesome, and look forward to seeing it in Rochester, great work! Just examining and asking the question of why if this is not how we see in life, why the traditional guides are what they are, that all.
Thanks!
 

Adair M

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So, my JBP moves to the right. That determines how we orient the stand and where to place the secondary tree, the neagari semi cascade JRP. YEAH, I know, two pines. They're different species of pine, so that helps.

I recognize that my JBP has some flaws. I'm hoping that it thickens up considerably after decandling.

Traditionally, JBP goes on top. Even though JBP is not a mountain tree! Go figure. Anyway, it should be an informal upright, almost certainly a conifer.

The rules for the off stand tree are looser. Any variety is acceptable, it depends on the height of the stand. The taller the stand, it's more likely to be a conifer. If it sits on the ground, it should be a lowlands tree. My JRP grows at higher elevations, around foothills and sides of the mountain, so it needs to be elevated. It would be wrong to have it on the ground.

Upon looking at my test display, I agree with the comments that the current stand for the JRP is too high. I have a shorter one that I can use.

Now: placement of trees "inside the box"...

You don't want trees with any similarities next to each other. Side by side. Or over/under. For example, let's say you wanted to put 2 conifers inside the box. They both shouldn't be on the same level. Or one above the other. They should be placed on the diagonal. Same with two deciduous.

Now, it's nice to have a flowering or fruiting tree in the box. Especially if it's in season. I don't really have many flowering or fruiting shohin, but an olive comes close. So, since I'm planning on putting an olive on the lower left, and it's an evergreen, I need to put another evergreen upper right. The Hinoki works perfectly there.

Which leave the last two spots. I have a broom zelkova, and a ROR trident. Both are lowland trees, but the rock gives the impression of being up in the mountains, so I think it works there. The zelkova looks good on the bottom.
 

Adair M

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I have some bad news about Diasaku... I found out last night that he was in a bad car crash 10 days ago, and he is still hospitalized. Right now, his left arm and hand is numb. I don't know about his leg. I pray for a full recovery! Young guy, too. He and his wife have a young son.
 
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I missed the ROR tree in the second photo...
I think it added variety.
I have some bad news about Diasaku... I found out last night that he was in a bad car crash 10 days ago, and he is still hospitalized. Right now, his left arm and hand is numb. I don't know about his leg. I pray for a full recovery! Young guy, too. He and his wife have a young son.
Sorry, to hear it.
 

Adair M

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A picture of Diasaku and Boon:

image.jpeg

Picture taken at the Celebration dinner after the annual BIB show. Diasaku is an extradinary talent. And likes to have fun in the process of making bonsai.
 

Adair M

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Second photo is much better, quieter. I really wish you had a lower, wider stand for that hinoki.
This is going to be a great addition at the Nationals.
I had that round stand, and wanted to see how it looked. All that is still very much undecided.

So... Since we're discussing stands and such, let's discuss pots.

The JBP is in a traditional pot used for shohin JBP. Almost required to have to use that style.

All the other pots need to differ. Shohin are supposed to be "fun", so the usual rules of earth tones are tossed out, and unusual shapes, colors, designs are permitted, even expected. Thus, the yellow pot!

But, it would be wrong to have two yellow or really bright pots. All should be of differing colors, shapes, textures, heights. Since the pots are so small, it is allowed to mound the soil more than your typical bonsai. It's nice to have one painted pot. So, while the ROR is in a very nice pot, I might change it for the show.
 

Adair M

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Now, the little stands...

The box stand has built into it some variations of heights. The use of additional stands within the main box stand is optional. The purpose of additional stands is primarily to control the relative heights of the trees. And perhaps add to (or reduce) the visual weight that an individual tree might have, as Sawgrass alluded to.

Put in too many, it looks busy. Too few, it might look too plain. Ill fitting stands are worse than no stands.

Alas, the great temptation is to use every little stand you have! These little things are expensive, and you rarely get to use them, so you're driven to use them even if you don't need to... Lol!!! Then again, it's great to have too many (or, shall we say, a selection) to be able to make an appropriate choice.

Same as with pots: each one used should be different.

I had taken up some burls to try for under the cascade stand. But I think I will be using a stand that matches the bottom of the box, and set the shorter cascade stand on it. Along with the accent. This will give the off box tree more prominence, as it will get its own "space".

I'll work on that, and try to get a picture.
 

sorce

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I'll work on that, and try to get a picture.

It would be nice to have all the pics in one post again...
Especially on the next page.

Sorce
 
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