Tsuga c. literati?

[MrFancyPlants]

I found a nursery with some hemlock at reasonable prices, but they weren’t in the best health and not a lot (almost 0) of interior growth. This one has a couple children trees unless they come from the same roots under the soil, so likely 3 for $60. I always enjoyed the literati style but never tried one out for myself, so we’ll see how it goes.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Two suggestions: Remove surface soil down to main roots, Get tree very healthy before hacking away possibly needed foliage. Possibly have 3 Literati candidates.

 

[Underdog]

I'm betting they are one tree up potted and buried. Looks like mother/daughter w/a stray cat tree to me
Could be a nice base under there.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

Two suggestions: Remove surface soil down to main roots, Get tree very healthy before hacking away possibly needed foliage. Possibly have 3 Literati candidates.

Agreed, getting it healthy is priority number one. I was thinking that they must have left fall leaves in it a while to have all of the inner growth killed off the way it was, but there is some dieback at the very apex as well, which I think wouldn’t play with that theory.
I removed a few branches to “let light in” before I thought it through.
I like the idea of uncovering some surface roots soon, as it will give me some idea as to the urgency for repotting i.e. this Spring or fertilize for next spring repot. The more I think about it the more I am expecting a soggy mess when I get in there.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

I'm betting they are one tree up potted and buried. Looks like mother/daughter w/a stray cat tree to me
Could be a nice base under there.

Lol, “stray cat.” Now you have me curious and tempted to take wagers. If they are all connected, I would think more likely for a nicer base. I shouldn’t put too much thought into it until I have some signs of health, but I wouldn’t rule out some self grafts if the base is nice for a smaller tree. I might need some self grafts to make the literati optimal as well.

 

[Underdog]

Now you have me curious and tempted to take wagers. If they are all connected, I would think more likely for a nicer base

I wager 2 dollars you find something like this Either way it looks like a fun project. I'm going to walk my friends fields soon and pick out a couple more for next spring. Enjoying the Hemlocks. I killed an amazing one I collected off a cliff my rookie year and still feel remorse. Good luck w/yours an I enjoy comparing notes while we both learn them. I feel they are way under used as bonsai.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

I wager 2 dollars you find something like this Either way it looks like a fun project. I'm going to walk my friends fields soon and pick out a couple more for next spring. Enjoying the Hemlocks. I killed an amazing one I collected off a cliff my rookie year and still feel remorse. Good luck w/yours an I enjoy comparing notes while we both learn them. I feel they are way under used as bonsai.
View attachment 459600

I would be surprised if it as nice as that being as mine is nursery material; yours was collected correct? I would think my new one would be more likely to have some burlap based girdling buried under there.

 

[HorseloverFat]

I think he's talking about the Tsuga's fondness for throwing "raft-like" growth on bottom branches that've, at one point in their life, been quite "stressed".

This is observed often on local hemlocks...

Difficulties are had in locating "decent" Tsuga starting material, even for me, and they grow all over my woods. It's a dice roll.

Yours... Despite being nursery stock, already has Movement in great places. Looking good!

Echoing what was said before, focus on the health. A healthy one of these bad mammer-jammers ALWAYS has fresh buds... (In cyclical fashion of course) Always lil green peepers.

I've seen, what I thought to be, a Tsuga put on a surprising amount of root-growth throughout winter (I could be wrong).. So, just make sure you keep the bottom above freezing. (This is kind of good advice for any fall collection, anyways)

 

[MrFancyPlants]

I think he's talking about the Tsuga's fondness for throwing "raft-like" growth on bottom branches that've, at one point in their life, been quite "stressed".

This is observed often on local hemlocks...

Difficulties are had in locating "decent" Tsuga starting material, even for me, and they grow all over my woods. It's a dice roll.

Yours... Despite being nursery stock, already has Movement in great places. Looking good!

Echoing what was said before, focus on the health. A healthy one of these bad mammer-jammers ALWAYS has fresh buds... (In cyclical fashion of course) Always lil green peepers.

I've seen, what I thought to be, a Tsuga put on a surprising amount of root-growth throughout winter (I could be wrong).. So, just make sure you keep the bottom above freezing. (This is kind of good advice for any fall collection, anyways)

I see what you mean, and looks like @Underdog s material might have been raised at a tree farm too; That’s not your backhoe is it?

Thanks for the encouragement.

Fortunately, no collection involved so I don’t think I need to be too concerned with bottom heat. Tsuga c. Strike me as quite cold hardy, though if I was repotting now I might consider some de-icing cable type setup. I have read about but never tried.

 

[Underdog]

@Underdog s material might have been raised at a tree farm

Yes it was at my friends place.

 

[Yosemite Goat]

I found a nursery with some hemlock at reasonable prices, but they weren’t in the best health and not a lot (almost 0) of interior growth. This one has a couple children trees unless they come from the same roots under the soil, so likely 3 for $60. I always enjoyed the literati style but never tried one out for myself, so we’ll see how it goes.View attachment 459514

This tree was more than likely collected from the woods, and potted up to be sold at the nursery.

We buy them from someone who digs them. If they cut too many roots the interior dies out. Give the tree plenty of bone meal and leave it until the spring growth. As we all know, be sure there are plenty of roots before doing any major work.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

This guy is not looking super healthy, but it could be “fall colors”. Yellow foliage. I thought that it might have not gotten a lot of light at the nursery where I picked it up, and it was weak when I got it. There was osmicote (sp?) on the surface of the soil, so I don’t think it is lack of nutrients.
Over-watering, in a weakened state? Fall colors? Should I repot this Spring to try and snap it out of the death spiral, or give it another year being real careful with the water?

 

[Potawatomi13]

As we all know, be sure there are plenty of roots before doing any major work.

I shouldn’t put too much thought into it until I have some signs of health,

Get tree very healthy before hacking away possibly needed foliage

Agreed, getting it healthy is priority number one.

Repotting in Spring? NYET! Paying no attention at all to above comments?

 

[MrFancyPlants]

Repotting in Spring? NYET! Paying no attention at all to above comments?

That’s fair.. I am getting the feeling it is going downhill, but thanks for re-enforcing the safe path.

 

[River's Edge]

Take the time to establish a healthy root system, as reflected in very healthy foliage before " working" hemlock!
Once established, the progress can be very rewarding!
Initial repotting and root work should be careful and limited until the root ball is very strong and established. The safe route is to stage complete repots over time. If the tree recovers nicely after a partial repot then move on to the next stage, never bare root or aggressively cut lots of roots at one time. Excellent results can be obtained by taking three to four years too establish a good root ball through partial repots and less root work rather than the aggressive approach! This can result in a very healthy ( vigorous tree) that responds well to pruning and wiring.

 

[HorseloverFat]

NYET!

Russian.... Weird choice. (I agree, though, with your sentiment.)

Do you NOT know your "Nation"s language?

Can't just let the indigenous culture die...

 

[MrFancyPlants]

Take the time to establish a healthy root system, as reflected in very healthy foliage before " working" hemlock!
Once established, the progress can be very rewarding!
Initial repotting and root work should be careful and limited until the root ball is very strong and established. The safe route is to stage complete repots over time. If the tree recovers nicely after a partial repot then move on to the next stage, never bare root or aggressively cut lots of roots at one time. Excellent results can be obtained by taking three to four years too establish a good root ball through partial repots and less root work rather than the aggressive approach! This can result in a very healthy ( vigorous tree) that responds well to pruning and wiring.

Doing a wedge would be difficult in this nursery pot. Maybe a “core sample” could give me an idea if I am working with burlap’d clay and let some oxygen in? I’ve seen a technique where a chopstick is hammered in and worked in a circle and back filled with some pumice. Water permeates the surface quite well, but I could cut a window or two along the bottom of the pot to enhance drainage and let some air in?
I could just leave it be and cross my fingers, but I am thinking there could be some steps short of an emergency repot that will give it a breath of life to power it through more intensive root operations in future years.
There were about twenty trees to choose from at the nursery, and they were all pretty weak except for one or two that had completely given up the ghost. My assumption at the time was that fall leaves hadn’t been cleared out in previous years and that some attention and more would perk it back up. But, I don’t think this sort of chlorosis is line line with that theory.
Maybe it was more of a scenario like @Yosemite Goat suggested. Hastily dug dug up from forest or field and transplanted with clay around the roots. Then the automatic watering at the nursery led to the weakened state, exasperated by the osmcote sprinkled on the surface?

 

[River's Edge]

Doing a wedge would be difficult in this nursery pot. Maybe a “core sample” could give me an idea if I am working with burlap’d clay and let some oxygen in? I’ve seen a technique where a chopstick is hammered in and worked in a circle and back filled with some pumice. Water permeates the surface quite well, but I could cut a window or two along the bottom of the pot to enhance drainage and let some air in?
I could just leave it be and cross my fingers, but I am thinking there could be some steps short of an emergency repot that will give it a breath of life to power it through more intensive root operations in future years.
There were about twenty trees to choose from at the nursery, and they were all pretty weak except for one or two that had completely given up the ghost. My assumption at the time was that fall leaves hadn’t been cleared out in previous years and that some attention and more would perk it back up. But, I don’t think this sort of chlorosis is line line with that theory.
Maybe it was more of a scenario like @Yosemite Goat suggested. Hastily dug dug up from forest or field and transplanted with clay around the roots. Then the automatic watering at the nursery led to the weakened state, exasperated by the osmcote sprinkled on the surface?

In this case I would do an exploratory repotting for lack of a better term. Remove the tree from the nursery pot and examine the condition of the roots. Determine where the strongest root growth is and deal with the weakest areas first. Determine the condition of the soil and type. Plan an approach for the specific tree that removes as many dead roots, compacted poor soil as possible with a guideline of not doing more than 1/3 of the root ball in total. With weaker trees I only cut larger strong roots that have very few feeder roots on them and always leave a section with feeder roots closer to the trunk. Strong thick roots can be shortened over time and the response of working them successively aids in established new roots closer in to the trunk.
With circling nursery pot scenarios this can be a good approach. Tease out roots rather than chop them off, place in a wider pot to begin with, knowing that the end goal is to develop roots closer in and reduce pot size later! This way you can untangle sections without aggressive root cutting.
My favourite transition is to an Anderson flat type of container or grow box built for the situation. Just a few suggestions, takes longer but the results can be well worth the effort.
But first explore the situation before determine the best course of action. You can always put It back in the pot if circumstances warrant that approach.

 

[Underdog]

Great advice Frank!

 

[MrFancyPlants]

I will take Frank’s advice this or next Spring, but I had a sinking feeling that the health would rapidly decline if I couldn’t breath some life into those roots before then. I took the core sample tool and made four cores from the prerimeter, angled in slightly and back filled with pumice.
What came out of the cores was very few roots, mostly near the surface, and a lot of fine mucky sandy silt. The good news was no chunks of clay. I didn’t make new holes in the pot under the pumice bore holes yet. I was thinking I’d take a drill to the bottom of the pot and make a series of smaller holes across the bottom, to let in more air and hopefully alleviate the soggy conditions.