tree_sleeper
Seedling
Do you not worry about building trunk leaders on this? Or is the girth just so large that it's impractical?
TX Persimmon
- Thread starter Poink88
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Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
I will shortly but TX Persimmon do not heal so there will be uro on this no matter what. Proper & proportionate branch transition will surely take a long time but it will come. My approach (experimental) is just different than most.
Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
Thanks Leo. We may seem to have longer growing period but not really. Right now, lots of my plants are shutting down because temps are in high 90s and some 3 digits already. We will get our 2nd spring before fall though. 
You are right about high organic mix and location...it sure works for me here.
You are right about high organic mix and location...it sure works for me here.
tree_sleeper
Seedling
Thanks for the reply. I'm asking in part for myself. I have several large elaeagnes collected in late winter that have exploded. I have forgone pruning the uppermost new shoots, choosing instead to cut the tops of the trunks (right where they meet the new young leader shoot) at an angle and then building the taper by allowing the shoots to grow unpruned straight up while the new wound closes. Just like in the attached pic, except there are multiple upper trunks to the elaeagnes just like your persimmon. I was under the impression that for them to grow thicker quickly it is best to leave them unpruned until the desired thickness is achieved and then cut them back. I've done the same for my lowermost branches, only lightly wiring them into position but still leaving them unpruned and unpinched in order for the girth to increase at the fastest rate before cutting back hard. The branches in the middle I've cut back to 8 or so nodes and the ones on top that will not be leaders I've cut to 4 or less nodes.
I was under the impression that pruning before your desired diameter is achieved will drastically slow down their growth. Is this not the case?
I was under the impression that pruning before your desired diameter is achieved will drastically slow down their growth. Is this not the case?
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Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
That is correct and is the common and tried & true practice. Surely is the safe way to go.
My experimental approach is to prune initially, have some ramification going then let it grow. It is somewhat reverse way but my reasoning is that I will have a better structure sooner AND have multiple branches to help thicken my main branch faster at that point.
I equate it to a horse drawn carriage...I can have a one horse and get it going right away...or choose to stop to hook up 3 more. It will slow me down initially but once the 4 horses go, I assume it will be faster than the one horse in the long run.
Whether it will work as I theoretically assume, is still unknown.
tree_sleeper
Seedling
That is a very interesting theory. I have another smaller eleaegnes that I will have to try your experiment on and see how it goes. It does seem to make a weird kind of sense that once several branches have developed and are grown from one, growth will be faster. Thanks for the info.
Dario...a little something for you to chew on.
I think what you will find in the long run is the proportions of the branches will be off...your going to end up with branches that are too thick at the top of your tree. In my experience, the reason it is done the other way, trunk line first and then branches, is so that once you begin to develop your apex branches, you can keep them in scale with the rest of the tree. So, why create several more large scars in the apex(when you have to remove the large branches and grow a new apex) when it can be done with just two...the original chop, and then the second chop of the apex branch once the transition is in proportion. I am sure by now you are learning that many of species we work with, boxwood, holly, azalea, to name just a few are not really that great at healing scars....so the fewer the better is typically the most desirable outcome.
Using your method...if you try to keep the branches of the crown in scale, it will take longer to heal the chop and much longer to get a reasonably tapered transition. So by your logic, the fastest way to a finished tree, I am not sure this is a viable route....and unfortunately this will not really become apparent on your trees until you are good ways down the road.
I do think the method you are using may lead to a more bonsai-looking tree sooner, but in the long run the design will not be maintainable, the apex branches will be out of scale with other branches on the tree....so, is it really a faster/better method?
There is typically a good reason for the way things are done. I appreciate that you are passionate about always trying to find a better and faster way...I am also driven by this desire. Sometimes I think we have to realize that we are not the first to travel this road and that tried and true methods have become just that because they work.
Just something to think about!
John
I think what you will find in the long run is the proportions of the branches will be off...your going to end up with branches that are too thick at the top of your tree. In my experience, the reason it is done the other way, trunk line first and then branches, is so that once you begin to develop your apex branches, you can keep them in scale with the rest of the tree. So, why create several more large scars in the apex(when you have to remove the large branches and grow a new apex) when it can be done with just two...the original chop, and then the second chop of the apex branch once the transition is in proportion. I am sure by now you are learning that many of species we work with, boxwood, holly, azalea, to name just a few are not really that great at healing scars....so the fewer the better is typically the most desirable outcome.
Using your method...if you try to keep the branches of the crown in scale, it will take longer to heal the chop and much longer to get a reasonably tapered transition. So by your logic, the fastest way to a finished tree, I am not sure this is a viable route....and unfortunately this will not really become apparent on your trees until you are good ways down the road.
I do think the method you are using may lead to a more bonsai-looking tree sooner, but in the long run the design will not be maintainable, the apex branches will be out of scale with other branches on the tree....so, is it really a faster/better method?
There is typically a good reason for the way things are done. I appreciate that you are passionate about always trying to find a better and faster way...I am also driven by this desire. Sometimes I think we have to realize that we are not the first to travel this road and that tried and true methods have become just that because they work.
Just something to think about!
John
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
Hey Dario and all,
I love the Horses theory as well, and any unconventional approaches and experiments. I am one who also does this. However. After playimg devils advocate...
We use that same technique to ramify, and make more, smaller leaves, in texts it states, the same solar surface area (energy), but by smaller and more leaves. Which leaves (lol) us to assume, the theory is incorrect. Then you also have the energy going to the wound healing too, rather than girth.
But. While trimming side growing branches on runners to direct energy to the growing tip, ( also as stated in text) I always wonder how removing energy factories anywhere can help.
My answer to that question is basically (length equals girth). This is true in any tree or branch I see. So while I havent noticed it helping due to lack of proper controls and notes, it makes sense, so I keep doing it.
In other text, (all by pros BTW) I read, and have experienced myself.... About building taper in branching. The cut- to stub will not grow in girth until the next branch reaches the same girth. (Thats how taper lasts, combined with proper pruning) So essentially, you are dividing the energy to build girth and likely doubling your time.
Here's the upside. This takes time anyway right. So your approach, while "longer", benefits you with options. This is why I like it. A dude who grew one branch out may find it in the wromg place for whatever reason, dieback, other growth, etc. Then he has to cut it and start over. You will be able to chose the other and call it one, making your approach "shorter".
I appreciate all your posts. Thanks.
Sorce
I love the Horses theory as well, and any unconventional approaches and experiments. I am one who also does this. However. After playimg devils advocate...
We use that same technique to ramify, and make more, smaller leaves, in texts it states, the same solar surface area (energy), but by smaller and more leaves. Which leaves (lol) us to assume, the theory is incorrect. Then you also have the energy going to the wound healing too, rather than girth.
But. While trimming side growing branches on runners to direct energy to the growing tip, ( also as stated in text) I always wonder how removing energy factories anywhere can help.
My answer to that question is basically (length equals girth). This is true in any tree or branch I see. So while I havent noticed it helping due to lack of proper controls and notes, it makes sense, so I keep doing it.
In other text, (all by pros BTW) I read, and have experienced myself.... About building taper in branching. The cut- to stub will not grow in girth until the next branch reaches the same girth. (Thats how taper lasts, combined with proper pruning) So essentially, you are dividing the energy to build girth and likely doubling your time.
Here's the upside. This takes time anyway right. So your approach, while "longer", benefits you with options. This is why I like it. A dude who grew one branch out may find it in the wromg place for whatever reason, dieback, other growth, etc. Then he has to cut it and start over. You will be able to chose the other and call it one, making your approach "shorter".
I appreciate all your posts. Thanks.
Sorce
Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
Thanks John and Sorce.
Nice input and much appreciated.
I actually have some kind of proof that it works on my boxwood. I say some kind because I never let it run as I intended rather I kept pruning/pinching it. By having many branches, they seem to pool the lignin at convergence points and build thicker branches...just like you have reverse taper at whorl areas but tapered in this case. I will eventually stick to the original plan.
BTW, the reverse taper observation actually started this idea/experiment.
I'll take a few pics of the boxwood branches when I find time.
Nice input and much appreciated.
I actually have some kind of proof that it works on my boxwood. I say some kind because I never let it run as I intended rather I kept pruning/pinching it. By having many branches, they seem to pool the lignin at convergence points and build thicker branches...just like you have reverse taper at whorl areas but tapered in this case. I will eventually stick to the original plan.
BTW, the reverse taper observation actually started this idea/experiment.
I'll take a few pics of the boxwood branches when I find time.
Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
Neli
Omono
In your case I believe you can use selective sacrifice branches, to create taper, and girth...
which is not always suitable for all species, since a high sacrifice branch can suppress lower growth to a very large degree. So a useful way to avoid that is to wire the sacrifice branch downwards.
Common sense used to promote and retard growth in selective way using different techniques can be utilized to achieve desired results. Not all of this methods are easy or suitable for novices hough.
I believe there are many different ways to skin a rabbit.
which is not always suitable for all species, since a high sacrifice branch can suppress lower growth to a very large degree. So a useful way to avoid that is to wire the sacrifice branch downwards.
Common sense used to promote and retard growth in selective way using different techniques can be utilized to achieve desired results. Not all of this methods are easy or suitable for novices hough.
I believe there are many different ways to skin a rabbit.
Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Wiring the branches themselves (different from guy-wires) will impart a sense of age; adding character and interest to those branches. Most evergreen material allows us to work quickly, hide shortcuts and flaws by building a nice canopy and shaping the profile. But, after a while those branches are going thicken up and become visible, integral parts of the bonsai. Adding interest now is a good investment in the tree for later.
Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
Thanks Neli. I agree.
I understand and know what you are saying...I am just not sure why you said it here. Are you saying these branches don't have character and/or interest?
Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
I said it here because the last 10 posts have been about developing branches, and wiring movement now helps add character for later. As yet, your example shows relatively little character, but they are young shoots, and this is the time to intervene.I understand and know what you are saying...I am just not sure why you said it here. Are you saying these branches don't have character and/or interest?
Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
I posted several times that I will wire this eventually. If you missed it, this tree was purchased, chopped and repotted LESS THAN A YEAR AGO.
Somehow, I feel you expect too much from me. I am not that good.
LOL
Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
I posted several times that I will wire this eventually. If you missed it, this tree was purchased, chopped and repotted LESS THAN A YEAR AGO.
Somehow, I feel you expect too much from me. I am not that good.
I didn't miss anything, and I'm not talking about you at all. I'm talking about developing character in branches.
Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
RIGHT!!! LOL
The sample has little character? For a year work?
Check your Pyracantha thread...I assure you this "little character sample" have more character than what you attained after 2 years. Just saying.
Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
It would be relevant if I was holding up that "before" photo of my pyracantha as an example of how to develop branches, as you did with the boxwood example.
If anyone is still paying attention, I'll state it one last time: the entire point of my comments was to wire young branches to develop character.
Dario, I wish you all the best...
If anyone is still paying attention, I'll state it one last time: the entire point of my comments was to wire young branches to develop character.
Dario, I wish you all the best...
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Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
I like people who "walk the walk".
I'd love to see your tree "naked".
I have two pyracantha I collected 5 months ago (3/16/2014). Let's see what I can do with it in 2 years...and yes, I will show you the "naked" pics (good or bad), not just berries and foliage.
Thanks.
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Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
Dario,
hope you are well.
We have a Texas Ebony down here since 1985 or so. It is left to grow in the trough. Trunk takes a long time to thicken. Responds well to clip and grow.
Will be shown in another 10 or so years.
Checking to see if cuttings will grow, not a nice feeling to have the only one.
K is doing a few tests on growing in 3 mm glass marbles and compost, just to keep you curious.
We also cannot get 5 mm to 3 mm Leca [ hydroponic clay marbles ] so he spent 3 hrs hand rolling for a test with Ficus prim. around 8 mm to 5 mm.
Good Day
Anthony
hope you are well.
We have a Texas Ebony down here since 1985 or so. It is left to grow in the trough. Trunk takes a long time to thicken. Responds well to clip and grow.
Will be shown in another 10 or so years.
Checking to see if cuttings will grow, not a nice feeling to have the only one.
K is doing a few tests on growing in 3 mm glass marbles and compost, just to keep you curious.
We also cannot get 5 mm to 3 mm Leca [ hydroponic clay marbles ] so he spent 3 hrs hand rolling for a test with Ficus prim. around 8 mm to 5 mm.
Good Day
Anthony
