Unconventional and uneconomical soil components

[Cascading-Echinocactus]

I remember when this product was introduced, though I don't really remember 'When'. It was quite a number of years ago. The company that manufactured it gave a talk with quite a bit of study behind it at a nurseryman's convention I attended. The gist of the results was that, yes it blocked weeds like other mulches, but it had an accumulative effect and used long term it had a herbicidal effect on weeds as a pre-emergent. Can't say because I never used it.
Of course you know a phalaenopsis will grow in anything, as you said, if you know when and how to water. I know an orchid grower that grows orchids sucessfully in empty clay pots.

If given the correct amount of light, water, temperature, humidity, and fertilizer most orchids will grow and bloom profusely even with no soil media. In a controlled environment its ridiculously easy. Many people in my orchid society would cringe at the thought of growing an orchid in rubber, I thought that was pretty funny, however I will be satisfied if and when I can finally convince them that using bloom booster fertilizer on any plant is completely unnecessary.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Yes, that is a constant battle. Getting past the idea that a 10-10-10 fertilizer is NOT balanced to the needs of a plant, where a 12-0.8-13 is balanced if the Nitrogen is Nitrate. If the nitrogen is ammoniacal then 12-0.8-4 is about right.
And that Ca, Mg, and S are not micronutrients, they are macronutrients. The calcium, for most plants should be near the same as the N, so in our balanced mix, it would be 12-0.8-13-11-4-2 with the 11-4-2 being the Ca, Mg, and S.

Fortunately our substrate, and our municipal water supplies most of the calcium and magnesium the plants need. And sulfur is added every time it rains, as the acid rain from urban and suburban smog supplies plenty of sulfur.

 

[Cascading-Echinocactus]

Yes, that is a constant battle. Getting past the idea that a 10-10-10 fertilizer is NOT balanced to the needs of a plant, where a 12-0.8-13 is balanced if the Nitrogen is Nitrate. If the nitrogen is ammoniacal then 12-0.8-4 is about right.
And that Ca, Mg, and S are not micronutrients, they are macronutrients. The calcium, for most plants should be near the same as the N, so in our balanced mix, it would be 12-0.8-13-11-4-2 with the 11-4-2 being the Ca, Mg, and S.

Fortunately our substrate, and our municipal water supplies most of the calcium and magnesium the plants need. And sulfur is added every time it rains, as the acid rain from urban and suburban smog supplies plenty of sulfur.

I use foliage pro 9-3-6 diluted in reverse osmosis water on every plant I have. It meets the plants nutritional needs almost exactly. Purchasing an ro unit or filling 5 gallon jugs up at Walmart/Publix/whole foods might seem meticulous but it will save time in the end and beats using other fertilizers in conjunction with gypsum/Epsom salts or lime.

 

[dr.tenebris]

Given the time that's passed since the start of this I figured I'd ask,

Anyone use quartz in a small stone form?

I have a bottle filled with it and since its (essentially) silica I thought planting a small yamadori in a quartz based soil in a glass planter would be pretty cool... Figured I'd ask before I tried it

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Given the time that's passed since the start of this I figured I'd ask,

Anyone use quartz in a small stone form?

I have a bottle filled with it and since its (essentially) silica I thought planting a small yamadori in a quartz based soil in a glass planter would be pretty cool... Figured I'd ask before I tried it

Quartz and decomposed granite sort of fit into the same category. They aren't porous, so they won't hold any water. And they weight a ton. But they DO look nice

The important thing about pumice, lava, and akadama (and many other bonsai soil components) is their ability to absorb and hold water, while still allowing lots of void space and oxygen in the soil.

 

[dr.tenebris]

Quartz and decomposed granite sort of fit into the same category. They aren't porous, so they won't hold any water. And they weight a ton. But they DO look nice

The important thing about pumice, lava, and akadama (and many other bonsai soil components) is their ability to absorb and hold water, while still allowing lots of void space and oxygen in the soil.

Thats pretty much what I thought, I think a few possible solutions would be mixing a small amount of perlite or possibly some other high water retention materials in but in light amounts creating small contrast in the soil and still allowing us to observe the root growth and it's habits as a plant, I think probably 2 parts quartz and 1 part whatever substance would work best. We could also plant it in a shallow glass planter with a moss cover to keep water retention high on the surface increasing nebari.

 

[dr.tenebris]

Thats pretty much what I thought, I think a few possible solutions would be mixing a small amount of perlite or possibly some other high water retention materials in but in light amounts creating small contrast in the soil and still allowing us to observe the root growth and it's habits as a plant, I think probably 2 parts quartz and 1 part whatever substance would work best. We could also plant it in a shallow glass planter with a moss cover to keep water retention high on the surface increasing nebari.

After further consideration the ideal tree I think for a pure quartz soil might be a mangrove of some sort with a moss growth on top, mangrove require consistent water so having the pot filled with quartz would allow for a frequent fluid level check and water would make the quartz almost invisible, going from a the "mystic white" quartz sand I've heard about on here as the top soil and increasing the quartz thickness as the pot grows deeper... Just a thought though

 

[dr.tenebris]

Does anyone know how gypsum sand is as a soil component?
(Calcium sulfate)

I grew up in New Mexico and I remember white sands new Mexico has lovely white sand, like snow white.

It's a gypsum sand and I know it actually holds it's dunes together because of its excellent water Retention just below the surface of the sand (on a large scale this creates very interesting shapes as natural plants root and hold sections of sand while other areas move)

I think the stark white sand is gorgeous and I just had a random itch to see if anyone has tried anything with the incredibly fine sand

 

[dr.tenebris]

Does anyone know how gypsum sand is as a soil component?
(Calcium sulfate)

I grew up in New Mexico and I remember white sands new Mexico has lovely white sand, like snow white.

It's a gypsum sand and I know it actually holds it's dunes together because of its excellent water Retention just below the surface of the sand (on a large scale this creates very interesting shapes as natural plants root and hold sections of sand while other areas move)

I think the stark white sand is gorgeous and I just had a random itch to see if anyone has tried anything with the incredibly fine sand

Found this photo of a tree growing out there as reference,

 

[jradics]

I haven't seen anyone talk about these (probably a good reason) but would like to attempt to get anyone's experiences, opinions, anecdotal observations. If you have run across these at any point in time, used them or thought of using them please comment. I don't want to reform on the sound ideal mixes or the components therein; I simply want to start a (hopefully) fun discussion on the possibilities of the, passed over or unheard of by the majority, soil components we don't consider.

1. Perlite (unprocessed, non popped, and just out of the mine)- being unprocessed, this is obviously much heavier than horticultural perlite. I found someone selling small inexpensive boxes of golfball sizes pieces on ebay so I decided to get a few bust some up, sieve and experiment. I have found it to be very similar to pumice in texture and density.

2. Sandstone- I believe everyone knows what this is. Its all over everywhere, there are different densities ranging from fragile falls to dust in your hand to keeps it's form and holds water similar to LECA.

3. Dacite- falling somewhere between granite and pumice in weight and water holding capabilities this rock is loudly touted by the author of the stone eaters cactus soil article (I believe from Italy) who also advocated for the use of traditional bonsai soil components (akadama, kanuma, and chabasai) in soil mixes to be used for some of the more difficult to keep cacti species. Perhaps it could be useful in bonsai as well. I found a small inexpensive box of golfball sized chunks on eBay from the same seller as the perlite and, while it's been more difficult to break up and sieve than the perlite, I did it and I am now planning to experiment.

4. Mica
5. Mica schist
6. Volcanic tuff
7. Granadiorite

While I'm mainly interested in inert inorganic components, feel free to comment on anything that you've been curious about as well. Ill add to this list and take pictures of the busted/sifted components in the future if this topic piques anyone's interest.

trying to reinvent the wheel, eh?

 

[dr.tenebris]

trying to reinvent the wheel, eh?

Idk about O.P.'s intentions but I think having a wide variety of soil options increases our styling options!

Yes it's possibly just a waste but bonsai is art! And the more we can express our creativity the better I think!!

 

[Kanorin]

Idk about O.P.'s intentions but I think having a wide variety of soil options increases our styling options!

Yes it's possibly just a waste but bonsai is art! And the more we can express our creativity the better I think!!

I would think about some creative display options before incorporating an untested and likely not great soil component into a tree's roots (plants don't exactly appear to be thriving in it in the wild). Perhaps displaying along with a suiban filled with the gypsum sand or perhaps top-dressing your tree with coarse particles of the sand for a show. The main reason being that you really can't do much with trees whose roots are not thriving.

Certainly you can try things out with your trees and report your results. It's just that many soil alternatives to APL have been discussed on these forums and some of them work ok...but none of them seem to work as well for trees in shallow containers across multiple climates and multiple species.

 

[nuttiest]

Does anyone know how gypsum sand is as a soil component?
(Calcium sulfate)

I grew up in New Mexico and I remember white sands new Mexico has lovely white sand, like snow white.

It's a gypsum sand and I know it actually holds it's dunes together because of its excellent water Retention just below the surface of the sand (on a large scale this creates very interesting shapes as natural plants root and hold sections of sand while other areas move)

I think the stark white sand is gorgeous and I just had a random itch to see if anyone has tried anything with the incredibly fine sand

it would dissolve?

 

[dr.tenebris]

it would dissolve?

In theory it could but I stuck some in a water bottle with water years ago in an attempt to recreate the conditions to change it into selenite (a crystal that occurs in the desert when the water does manage to break it down) no success on that and there is a desert with 300 sq miles of it just chilling so chemically it has to be somewhere stable, plants grow out there too with no serious downside (aside from what you'd expect in a hot desert)

Soo I don't think so

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

In theory it could but I stuck some in a water bottle with water years ago in an attempt to recreate the conditions to change it into selenite (a crystal that occurs in the desert when the water does manage to break it down) no success on that and there is a desert with 300 sq miles of it just chilling so chemically it has to be somewhere stable, plants grow out there too with no serious downside (aside from what you'd expect in a hot desert)

Soo I don't think so

Gypsum is slightly soluble, and in nature creates a very specific ecosystem. Depending on conditions, gypsum forms somewhat toxic soil conditions to a wide range of of plant species, leaving only a limited array of species associated with gypsum sands. I would avoid using gypsum sand in a bonsai pot. If you must use sand, a silica sand would be a much better choice. Recognize the added horticultural challenges sand will impose because sand does not have internal pore structure that would hold water.

We normally use fairly coarse particle media, over 1/8 inch, usually around 1/4 inch in our bonsai potting mixes. With Akadama clay, particles, the clay particles hold plenty of water, then these air voids between the particles provide the oxygen or air exchange for the roots need. With a stark white silica sand, the sand particles have no internal pore structure to hold water. You will probably need to use a smaller particle size in order to use the space between sand grains to hold the water needed to get the tree through a warm summer day. The trick is that while the voids between the sand grains are filled with water, they do not allow much air penetration. When they dry, they allow plenty of air, but have no moisture left. You end up with a soil that has a very short "margin of error" for watering. For example if you are growing something other than a cactus or a baobab tree, The sudden alternation between wet and bone dry can be a problem for a maple or an azalea, or a pine. Kept too wet, the lower layers of sand become anoxic, encourage potentially harmful organisms and the anoxia will kill tree roots. Too dry, will kill tree roots. Both conditions can happen in any media, but are a higher risk in sand.

However, if you have some experience, it is not impossible to grow in fine white sand. I had a accent planting for a few years, a dwarf bamboo in stark white sand with bright green moss here and there. It was fine while under lights, when it went outside for the summer it fried crisp and died one hot summer day. Just could not keep it watered enough.

Yes, "Bonsai" is "Art", where we create using horticulture techniques. There is a time honored tradition, in part settled upon because "it works". In reality there are no absolute rules and there are no arbitrators of the rules. There are different "schools", most formally we have traditional Japanese Bonsai, Chinese Penjing, the independently developed and equally ancient Vietnamese art of dwarf trees, who's name I don't remember. Then less formal, there is a distinct European Style, North American Style, Australian Style and South African and South American Styles are evolving and slowly beginning to emerge. Regional styles are in part due to use of locally native species. But also due to local differences in artistic sensibilities. There is a fair amount of freedom to be creative inside the style elements usually viewed as being core to bonsai.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

In theory it could but I stuck some in a water bottle with water years ago in an attempt to recreate the conditions to change it into selenite (a crystal that occurs in the desert when the water does manage to break it down) no success on that and there is a desert with 300 sq miles of it just chilling so chemically it has to be somewhere stable, plants grow out there too with no serious downside (aside from what you'd expect in a hot desert)

Soo I don't think so

Sand will go from wet with no air in the voids between particles to bone dry. The wet cycle can develop anoxic conditions which will kill tree roots of most species. One can set up to stay wet, or dry out frequently to avoid anoxia.

You are correct, mangroves at least in nature tolerate these wet anoxic conditions. If you are inclined you can develop a collection of tree and or shrub species that tolerate anoxia at the roots. Species that tolerate flooded conditions might be good. I'd look into how well bald cypress (Taxodium) and button bush (Cephalanthus) might be worth testing for a constantly wet sand situation. I have encountered Cephalanthus well into permanently flooded zones of lakes and riverbanks. There are other riparian species worth checking out, though I am not as familiar.

The other way to go is to go with the desert. or drought tolerant species. I have a couple Bursera that I grow because I love the fragrance of the foliage, and sap, they are shrubs, but they do not ramify easily or well, and due to swelling, they tend to look pretty awkward as trees. Bursera, Commiphora, and Boswellia are 3 genera of pachycaul trees, all three genera require drying out between watering. During winter, I only water my Bursera maybe once every month. Only when I water my cacti. These 3 genera are grown for incense, all species of these genera have fragrant sap. The tissue of the trunk swells to hold water, this expanding and contracting creates a peeling bark. They are visually interesting even if they do not fit conventional bonsai standards.

Baobabs are unrelated but have similar adaptations, tolerate drought well. Only water your baobab when showing signs of active growth. If they drop their leaves, they are dormant. They MUST be kept bone dry while dormant or rot will set in. In general they only grow when temperatures are warm at night and higher in the day. I'm guessing about 70F at night. In Memphis, my friend's baobab only has leaves June, July and August. It goes leafless sometime in September. Exact temperature needed to stimulate growth may vary with species. I forget which species he has. Key is the minute leaves start to yellow, quit watering, let it get bone dry and keep it dry until new growth emerges the following year. Again, coarse branching, but not too bad as bonsai. A tricky subject for bonsai.

There are a number of sage brush and creosote bush type species that are desert plants that might be worth exploring for sand media bonsai. So I say give it a go. Go constantly wet, or more or less dry. The most difficult would be to grow the conventional, the maples and azaleas will be your most problematic, as they don't tolerate anoxia and won't tolerate drought.

 

[dr.tenebris]

Sand will go from wet with no air in the voids between particles to bone dry. The wet cycle can develop anoxic conditions which will kill tree roots of most species. One can set up to stay wet, or dry out frequently to avoid anoxia.

You are correct, mangroves at least in nature tolerate these wet anoxic conditions. If you are inclined you can develop a collection of tree and or shrub species that tolerate anoxia at the roots. Species that tolerate flooded conditions might be good. I'd look into how well bald cypress (Taxodium) and button bush (Cephalanthus) might be worth testing for a constantly wet sand situation. I have encountered Cephalanthus well into permanently flooded zones of lakes and riverbanks. There are other riparian species worth checking out, though I am not as familiar.

The other way to go is to go with the desert. or drought tolerant species. I have a couple Bursera that I grow because I love the fragrance of the foliage, and sap, they are shrubs, but they do not ramify easily or well, and due to swelling, they tend to look pretty awkward as trees. Bursera, Commiphora, and Boswellia are 3 genera of pachycaul trees, all three genera require drying out between watering. During winter, I only water my Bursera maybe once every month. Only when I water my cacti. These 3 genera are grown for incense, all species of these genera have fragrant sap. The tissue of the trunk swells to hold water, this expanding and contracting creates a peeling bark. They are visually interesting even if they do not fit conventional bonsai standards.

Baobabs are unrelated but have similar adaptations, tolerate drought well. Only water your baobab when showing signs of active growth. If they drop their leaves, they are dormant. They MUST be kept bone dry while dormant or rot will set in. In general they only grow when temperatures are warm at night and higher in the day. I'm guessing about 70F at night. In Memphis, my friend's baobab only has leaves June, July and August. It goes leafless sometime in September. Exact temperature needed to stimulate growth may vary with species. I forget which species he has. Key is the minute leaves start to yellow, quit watering, let it get bone dry and keep it dry until new growth emerges the following year. Again, coarse branching, but not too bad as bonsai. A tricky subject for bonsai.

There are a number of sage brush and creosote bush type species that are desert plants that might be worth exploring for sand media bonsai. So I say give it a go. Go constantly wet, or more or less dry. The most difficult would be to grow the conventional, the maples and azaleas will be your most problematic, as they don't tolerate anoxia and won't tolerate drought.

Living in Utah I do have plenty of desert species to choose from and can think of several more!

I do have access to hundreds of sage plants here (they fill a ton of space that's been modified by people and fires love to rip across that area they recover fantastically from it!

I do have the temptation to try and get some dragon blood tree seeds and try them as they get most of their water from humid air instead of water in the soil, very beautiful trees but I'm not certain how well they would take to the bonsai techniques.

I do know that gypsum is a very particular sand with the ability to breakdown (according to raw science) and reform as a crystal.

The primary thing to consider is how unlike other sands it likes to compact do to it's fine nature and is naturally an alkaline soil component meaning trees like maple, Douglas fir, Austrian pine, bur oak, hackberry, green ash and honeylocust would be good contenders.

Now I'm not necessarily saying gypsum as the only soil ingredient. Although it might be a good addition to soils requiring less acidic conditions, possibly as a primary ingredient we could use a granite to replace something like pumice in this mix?
Probably heavy use of the gypsum at the top layer then a mix more akin to 1:3:2 with gypsum, granite and possibly a white clay? (as there are many different colors of clay)

 

[nuttiest]

Stop saying gypsum at all, most people who use or buy gypsum are after a soil conditioner. It is calcium and sulfur and is a great buffering material, improves sandy soil, can be added to concrete, etc etcc man I miss the days when gypsum was in every feed store and kmart.
Now all you can buy for too much money at the big box stores is a little 5lb bag, unless you get the 50 lbs of plaster (it is similar enough chemically and few impurities.)
The SAND by you is a hydrate and totally different thing. (although I would love to play with some)

 

[dr.tenebris]

Stop saying gypsum at all, most people who use or buy gypsum are after a soil conditioner. It is calcium and sulfur and is a great buffering material, improves sandy soil, can be added to concrete, etc etcc man I miss the days when gypsum was in every feed store and kmart.
Now all you can buy for too much money at the big box stores is a little 5lb bag, unless you get the 50 lbs of plaster (it is similar enough chemically and few impurities.)
The SAND by you is a hydrate and totally different thing. (although I would love to play with some)

Hmm, didn't realize you could actually purchase it,
The sand I was referring to TRULY was sand we use to accidentally take with us from the desert when we would go visit as kids, we would put them in little jars so we have some laying about lol, I'll drop that specific fascination tho sorry

 

[nuttiest]

Hmm, didn't realize you could actually purchase it,
The sand I was referring to TRULY was sand we use to accidentally take with us from the desert when we would go visit as kids, we would put them in little jars so we have some laying about lol, I'll drop that specific fascination tho sorry

I saw you can buy this desert sand too, I am a little fascinated myself. Succulents grow great in larger grain sand so it may be a great topping. I would definitely taste for salt content first