undercutting mugo branch

[clevetromba]

Has anyone tried undercutting a branch on Mugo Pine to lower the angle? If so, what time of year should it be done? I have read through the compiled advice from Vance Wood on Mugos and didn't see anything on this question.

 

[M. Frary]

Don't see why it can't be done. I would think early in the growing season in order for it to heal. Maybe get a little sappy.

 

[clevetromba]

I would have thought it should be done in Summer after the new growth has finished, as it seems Mugos are sensitive to being disturbed in Springtime. I was hoping to hear from someone who's actually done it...

 

[clevetromba]

Here's what I'm trying to do: The tree has nebari only on one side, so I envision it as a slant style, and would like the lowest branch to be more horizontal (and also add more movement.

 

[johng]

First off...those branches are small enough to use wire to bend...easily...or you could use guy wires to pull them down....they are very flexible and should bend without too much difficulty
second...if you ever plan to notch a branch...especially on a pine or juniper...notch from the top not the bottom...notching from the bottom greatly increases the chance of cutting the feed lines to that branch and it will most likely die.

Wiring is just about the only way to "add movement" to a branch....

 

[0soyoung]

if you ever plan to notch a branch...especially on a pine or juniper...notch from the top not the bottom...notching from the bottom greatly increases the chance of cutting the feed lines to that branch and it will most likely die.

Quite frankly, this is non-sense.

 

[Smoke]

Quite frankly, this is non-sense.

Based on what. I'll take a notch on the top v bottom any day.

 

[0soyoung]

Based on what. I'll take a notch on the top v bottom any day.

Let's continue discussing, starting with this video

 

[Adair M]

When you notch from the top, you actually cut back into the trunk, not the branch. Yes, it opens up a wound, which will heal. Insert cut paste.

Branches are fed sap from the roots below them. Cutting the bottom of the crotch, making a little upside down V, which would be closed up when the branch is pulled down, sounds like a good idea. But difficult to do. You're relying on the cambiums to line up so that the branch grafts back together. And, you're hoping that the top tissues of the branch aren't severed when you make the bend.

Notching from the top is the way to do it.

 

[Adair M]

In that video, Ryan is making a bend in the middle of a branch/trunk. Not at a crotch. Different technique.

 

[Giga]

Notching from the top is the way I learned how to do it too

 

[Smoke]

Let's continue discussing, starting with this video

I watched about 30 seconds of it, right at the part where Ryan finished the cut midway thru the branch and bent it down then looked around at where he was going to attach the guy wire. You would have thought that would have been prepared already? Then he asked if they had wire?

Little too seat of the pants for me, but then I never studied in Japan, somehow that seems to make a difference.

 

[Adair M]

Going back to the OP's tree, I think heavy copper wire and maybe a guy wire ought to do whatever he needs to do.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

When you notch from the top, you actually cut back into the trunk, not the branch. Yes, it opens up a wound, which will heal. Insert cut paste.

Branches are fed sap from the roots below them. Cutting the bottom of the crotch, making a little upside down V, which would be closed up when the branch is pulled down, sounds like a good idea. But difficult to do. You're relying on the cambiums to line up so that the branch grafts back together. And, you're hoping that the top tissues of the branch aren't severed when you make the bend.

Notching from the top is the way to do it.

This.....is absolutely the way to go, though it takes a stout branch before this technique becomes necessary. This little mugo in this post should be a wire job.

 

[clevetromba]

Thanks for the advice about wire wrapping and guy wiring - I'll try that first for sure. I haven't looked at this tree in person since last fall, since it is still surrounded by bales of straw in a cold frame, but for some reason I remember being worried wire wouldn't bend the branch close enough to the trunk.

On the issue of top notching vs. undercutting, I am now thoroughly confused!

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

No need to be confused. Here are a couple examples I posted from a few years ago. Top-cutting is far better; more natural:

"V" Notching Made Easy

If I remember tomorrow, I'll update the thread to show how those 2 different techniques look now; they're both still going strong...just one looks more natural. You'll see the difference.

 

[clevetromba]

That would be great, I look forward to reading the thread.

 

[0soyoung]

if you ever plan to notch a branch...especially on a pine or juniper...notching from the bottom greatly increases the chance of cutting the feed lines to that branch and it will most likely die.

I'll update the thread to show how those 2 different techniques look now; they're both still going strong...

Ryan is making a bend in the middle of a branch/trunk. Not at a crotch

The words that I labelled to be nonsense say BRANCH.

When you notch from the top, you actually cut back into the trunk, not the branch.

With this I agree. This the the very best statement of this entire thread, "you actually cut back into the trunk, not the branch."

making a little upside down V, which would be closed up when the branch is pulled down, sounds like a good idea. But difficult to do. You're relying on the cambiums to line up so that the branch grafts back together

This is what Ryan did in the video. Bonsai Ejit published word to the effect that the cambiums on Phil's tree did rejoin and that it was doing well after the guys were removed. The video doesn't convey to me any sense of this being difficult or all that risky, especially with multiple underside notches of that same branch.

What I read of BVF's v-notching thread, nor his words here give me any sense of it being most likely that the branch will die if it is notched on the underside - I look forward to seeing his update.

 

[johng]

Oso...I respect your knowledge of plant physiology ....what I said is just my experience...no science. Adair described exactly what I was referring to...

As far as the pine in the video goes... That is just trying to hard to make something out of nothing for my taste....that tree may have survived...the photos at the end of the video show the wire off but guy wires still attached....however that trunk is permanently weakened and I wouldn't want to have to be the one to work on it in the future.

In my experience, going to such extremes just to create something out of less than desirable material, may make a decent video/demo but rarely results in a long term success.

 

[sorce]

It will look excellent with the tags hanging from it stating, "do not touch here, or here, or here, or here".

Italics for sarcasm!

Thank you John! Thank you!

Sorce