Understanding Pines - Japanese Black Pines (specifically)

[Mithrandir]

Hello!

So i've been on a bit of a crusade lately, tracking down information on how to grow black pines. Most of it has been relatively straightforward once you understand why and i've taken the plunge and purchased a few, cheap saplings(? -- they're just under a foot tall). I figured it's time to get some first-hand experience. I will apologise in advance for the quality of photos -- it's winter here (Zone10, Australia) and i'm out before sunrise, home after dark during the week).

One of the topics i'd really appreciate some input on from the community here is understanding the difference between buds, branches and candles (i know what they are -- but how do they grow?) and what can you do to help encourage proper branch structures?

I'm not sure if anyone has progress photos of their own trees that they could share progress photos, or even any current photos of what branches look like when they develop? I'm generally pretty cluey with most plants and am an avid gardener however these just feel like a complete blackhole and for some reason -- i cannot get my head around them. This fella, and the other few i get this weekend will be potted in something a bit bigger to grow and do their thing -- the idea is not to have something any time soon that looks wonderful but to learn HOW these trees grow and eventually, end up with something nice.

First up -- can we check my terminology is correct:

1. Blue circles = buds (end of branches?)
2. Yellow circles = branches
3. Brown/red (i'm colour blind) circles = trunk/leader/sacrificial branch
4. Purple circle = candle?

General assumptions:

• First thing i'll be doing is putting it in a bigger pot to grow for a few years
• lowest branch will remain for now -- never know if it will come in handy, and i've heard low branches are difficult to come by
• cluster of 3 -- in time 2 of these would need to go. Would it be wise to get rid of one now, keep a spare while it grows for a few years

Questions:

• At the end of the lateral branches are nodes, cutting these will prompt new branches to grow (1>2>4>... -- in theory). If i wanted to get some smaller split branches i could chop say, 1cm off the end and wait for buds to grow?
• How do candles grow? I assume spring/summer growth would see the development of new candles eventually opening to have more needles, etc.
• do candles grow in to branches or grow FROM branches? I.e. you should only expect to get new/more needles from them?
• Referring to the purple section, i'd be hoping that some additional lateral branches will be developing soon. If not, how would I encourage the tree to sprout more branches, without cutting back the leading/trunk branch?
• Will/do pines backbud where there are existing needles? I.e. would (or could) this tree grow another branch(es) on the right side between the top of the tree?
• How soon should you wire the trunk -- would it be wise to consider doing so to train the trunk earlier, rather than later?

 

[jeanluc83]

Welcome!

First off put your location in your profile. It will help you get information specific to your climate.

Next, and I hate to be that guy, do some more research. Most of your questions are not simple and will need a good amount of explanation. In fact if you can find someone in your area to sit down with in person it would be better.

Bonsai Tonight is a good place to start: Bonsai Tonight Japanese Red & Black Pines Links

If you can pick up a copy of the Pines book from Stone Lantern it is not a bad resource. It is a series of reprinted articles so it is a little bit "all over the place" but the information is sound.

Good luck.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

As far as I'm concerned, the general assumptions are alright, except that clusterds of 3 branches can be reduced to 2 as well. I'll leave the rest to the rest.

 

[Mithrandir]

Welcome!

First off put your location in your profile. It will help you get information specific to your climate.

Next, and I hate to be that guy, do some more research. Most of your questions are not simple and will need a good amount of explanation. In fact if you can find someone in your area to sit down with in person it would be better.

Bonsai Tonightis a good place to start: Bonsai Tonight Japanese Red & Black Pines Links

If you can pick up a copy of the Pines book from Stone Lantern it is not a bad resource. It is a series of reprinted articles so it is a little bit "all over the place" but the information is sound.

Good luck.

Not a problem -- i'm keen to learn as much as possible and not objectionable to more research. I'm heading out to one of the bonsai nursery's this weekend and i'm going to ask the owner, if it isn't busy, if he can give me a bit of a crash course by showing/explaining to me some of his more advanced collection. He's a really good guy. Will read up on the above.

 

[jeanluc83]

Look up if he offers a beginners pines class or private classes. It would be good form to offer up some cash for his information. At the very least walk away with a couple of plants. Having a bonsai nursery close by is a luxury most of us don't have so it would be in your best interest if you supported him.

 

[Mithrandir]

Look up if he offers a beginners pines class or private classes. It would be good form to offer up some cash for his information. At the very least walk away with a couple of plants. Having a bonsai nursery close by is a luxury most of us don't have so it would be in your best interest if you supported him.

Do not disagree there. Will see how i go on the weekend when i grab a few more.

If not, will rely on wonderful resources such as here for some guidance as well as observing and learning as i go

 

[bwaynef]

Basically they're all the same, just at various stages. Buds turn into candles. Candles into branches. Branches grow buds. Those buds turn into candles. Those candles into branches.

 

[barrosinc]

You should watch

 

[sparklemotion]

One of the topics i'd really appreciate some input on from the community here is understanding the difference between buds, branches and candles (i know what they are -- but how do they grow?) and what can you do to help encourage proper branch structures?

Funny... I was right around where you are, knowledge-wise, at the end of last winter. My pine is even a similar caliber.

To answer a couple of your questions, buds turn into candles, which are are new branches: after they extend, needles open along them. Here is my "learner's" pine (Norway pine/pinus resinosa), with the candles starting to open (we're in early to middle of summer here). Hopefully they helps you to visualize.

Some pines will backbud. I've been told that on resinoa, with new buds will form in the "cup" where needles are currently emerging. I've yet to see that up close (I collected this tree this past spring, and I'm mostly just watching it do it's thing for now).



I'd consider wiring sooner rather than later, to get movement low on the trunk. design-wise, I would lose the current leader (red) sooner rather than later as well. (I like small trees).

 

[RobertB]

I don't have much to add as my experience with pines is very limited. Would definitely recommend wiring then letting grow for a few yrs maybe studying the growth and such. I would think 2 yrs or so before you decandle this, which I might not even need then, maybe just some needle plucking. Someone with more experience could help more with that. For the most part it needs to be wired and let grow.

 

[Adair M]

Brian Van Fleet has a nice ebook on developing JBP.

Eric Schraeder’s thread “some pine seeds 6 years later” is a great resource.

Jonas’s blog “www.bonsaitonight.com” has tons and tons of good stuff about pines.

For now, I would avoid the Masters Pine Book, mentioned above. It has good info, but it is disorganized. It is a collection of reprinted magazine articles from Bonsai Today written by different artists with different approaches. It’s really easy to get confused. Especially if someone beginning in pines. Once you have some experience and a solid understanding, that book can advance your skills, but most beginners get confused by all the conflicting info in there.

 

[Mithrandir]

Thank you everyone for your information and time so far, i've got a running list now of resources and that to work through before the weekend! Greatly appreciated.

To answer a couple of your questions, buds turn into candles, which are are new branches: after they extend, needles open along them. Here is my "learner's" pine (Norway pine/pinus resinosa), with the candles starting to open (we're in early to middle of summer here). Hopefully they helps you to visualize.

^THIS.thank you so much -- makes perfect sense now. In advance trees you use the candles to control needle growth, density and ramification. In younger trees you let them grow to lengthen the branch and to a degree, fill out the needles. I feel that a lot of the resources around are targeted to the advance trees which kind of skip out this point.

One pressing, residual question I have relates to forcing/encouraging backbudding. My current plants need to grow, however to ensure a good number of branches develop, should I (at appropriate intervals, cut say 1-2cm off the top to encourage a buds?

 

[Mithrandir]

So i went outside today to take a good look in the sun, identifying features i've finally got my head around and noticed some buds just before the last candle that grew -- so there will already be some branch options! Which is good. May cut the top down a little at the end of summer once any candle at the top opens up!

Really do appreciate everyones time/patience with the above advice

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

One pressing, residual question I have relates to forcing/encouraging backbudding. My current plants need to grow, however to ensure a good number of branches develop, should I (at appropriate intervals, cut say 1-2cm off the top to encourage a buds?

Read here:
https://nebaribonsai.wordpress.com/2013/03/02/sacrifice-branches-black-pine/
And here:
https://nebaribonsai.wordpress.com/2013/07/13/sacrifice-branches-black-pine-part-2/

 

[RichS]

Brent's Articles has ALOT of info on just about every thing bonsai related. Good stuff on pines

 

[jeanluc83]

Brent's Articles has ALOT of info on just about every thing bonsai related. Good stuff on pines

Evergreen Gardenworks Articles

Once you arm yourself with some more knowledge I would get some more advanced material. You will learn from your seedling but not all that much when it comes to actually practicing bonsai. It will be many years before you will be able to apply most techniques to your pine.

Get involved in a local club. One of the more practical ways of obtaining material is with in the bonsai community.

 

[Mithrandir]

Once you arm yourself with some more knowledge I would get some more advanced material. You will learn from your seedling but not all that much when it comes to actually practicing bonsai.

Completely agree -- just figured it is better to learn the growing basics on some small stop before dropping $$ on a big tree and ruin it. In terms of soil for growing -- assume a decent bag of growing soil without too much wetting agents would suffice?

 

[Mithrandir]

Apologies for the double post, but just wanted to say a HUGE thank you to everyone who offered me advice over the past week. Had a very successful learning day today.

Went back to the nursery to do a bit of a shop for wire and a few other things I was running low on and bumped in to the owner again, had a bit of a chat and asked about some lessons, etc. Anyway they were close to closing up and were working on some of their own trees so offered to provide a few lessons, etc. I ended up getting something a little more advanced than the seedlings i intended (almost 2ft tall) however, big enough that over the next 6-12 months, will give me some experience doing multiple things, specifically on a pine.

They were very generous with their time and took me through all of their stock showing me the different stages, progression and what the priorities are at each stage, etc. Even said to shoot through any residual questions, etc. We spent some time looking at the one I wanted to buy, what could be done with it, running through the do's/don'ts with pines and a bit of a crash course. We applied some wire to the trunk to start the basic shape as the trunk was very flexible and now just let it be for a few months until the wire needs reviewed and some further refinement to the shape of the lower trunk.

Overall, it was such a great day and i'm really glad I asked for their time. In the interim, next weekend i'll tidy up the needles around the wire (not remove anything i'm not 100% sure i wont need to hope for back-budding) and remove some of the parallel/front-growing branches that need to go. Then, get it ready for spring-growth and keep it well fed and appropriately watered!

Anyway, just wanted to say thank you for everyone who gave me some pointers -- i appreciate the time you've afforded me so thought i'd share where I am at and how it went! Now have a long but exciting journey ahead with this tree!

 

[jeanluc83]

In terms of soil for growing -- assume a decent bag of growing soil without too much wetting agents would suffice?

Now this can be a very contintious subject. Do some searching on the forum and you will see what I mean. There really is no simple answer.

The general consensus is to use a mix that is mostly inorganic (pumice, lava rock, expanded shale, clay products, etc) with some organics (composted pine bark, rough peat). Many also use akadama which straddles the line between organic and inorganic. Most professionals use akadama. The down side is cost and it can have undesirable properties I'm some climates.

What is used depends on what is available in your area and cost.

Here are some good articles:
https://www.kaizenbonsai.com/bonsai-tree-care-information/choosing-soil-for-bonsai-trees
https://www.kaizenbonsai.com/bonsai-tree-care-information/what-should-be-in-your-bonsai-soil

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Hi all,
Many thanks to @Mithrandir for starting this thread. It has been very informative.
My question for @Adair M , and/or others is the needle plucking. I have searched all over trying to find info but... I have not purchased @Brian Van Fleet e-book, but will do soon.
How old JBP tree needs to be re needle plucking ?
Why do you do needle plucking?
And any other questions around this subject to understand for beginner pine growers like myself.
Thank you, Charles