Understanding the value of grafted trees

JackHammer

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Can someone please explain the pros and cons of grafted plants? I understand that they are easy to make but does the rootstock change the properties and value of the tree?
I got a corkbark JBP and it is a graft but the website of the company didn't specify that it was a graft. I thought I was purchasing a whole baby tree. I am not sure I want to put many years of work into a tree that isn't the real deal. I also have a concern that the root stock wouldn't have the same cork bark.
Maybe grafts don't impact the value of the tree and I shouldn't be concerned?
 

Tidal Bonsai

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I am not an expert, but some trees are commonly grafted and accepted in traditional bonsai and others are not. JWP and cork bark black pine are commonly grafted onto stronger JBP rootstock and are in that category. I have seen (on video) JWP that has not been grafted, but it’s very rare, and I have never seen a cork bark black pine on its own roots.

At the end of the day, if you enjoy the tree then it is worth it. There are thousands of better investments if you are looking for value appreciation over time. Bonsai is a hobby, and should be enjoyed as a hobby IMO.
 

JackHammer

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I am not an expert, but some trees are commonly grafted and accepted in traditional bonsai and others are not. JWP and cork bark black pine are commonly grafted onto stronger JBP rootstock and are in that category. I have seen (on video) JWP that has not been grafted, but it’s very rare, and I have never seen a cork bark black pine on its own roots.

At the end of the day, if you enjoy the tree then it is worth it. There are thousands of better investments if you are looking for value appreciation over time. Bonsai is a hobby, and should be enjoyed as a hobby IMO.
Thanks! No, not looking for a financial gain, just trying to understand what is in your words "widely accepted".
 

Tidal Bonsai

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What I mean by widely accepted is that grafted JWP and Cork Bark Pine in Japan, Europe and the US are accepted into major shows and displayed.
 

Forsoothe!

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Grafted trees are not accepted in bonsai. They exist, they are hard to avoid because the industry practices are centered on landscape gardening and bonsai is such a small portion of the marketplace that we don't really count for much. Do not pull your heart and soul into a tree that will grow to show the graft more and more as it ages. There are some grafted trees out there with better or even good grafts (good for us and good by our standards), but you have to scan fields and fields of them to stumble upon the few. All this is why so many of us have to learn to air layer trees. I don't know why more un-grafted trees aren't grown by bonsai nurseries.
 

MrWunderful

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People dont like grafts for bonsai because most people think of “grafted bonsai” as terrible overpriced maple cultivars you see at garden centers.
Usually grafts ruin the trunk line because for the nursery industry, all that matters is speed and production- not trunk appearance. Most People throwing a dissectum in the back yard corner dont care about the trunk but in bonsai, the trunk form and quality are prized.

That being said, some of the best Juniper bonsai in the world you will see is grafted, because outstanding age and deadwood in the trunk line is found on species that do not have good foliage for traditional bonsai (ex- San jose trunk, shimpaku foliage).

Grafts like that are generally well done by a skilled hand with care and aesthetics in mind and most viewers would not be able to see it.
 

BuckeyeOne

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Depending on your timeline, a healthy grafted tree can be ground layered above the graft. It will then be on it's own roots.
I cannot speak as to the success rate of corkbark JBP's.
Someone else can probably advise better.
Cuttings are also a alternative.
If you are just looking for a personal tree and do not plan to show it, grow it and enjoy.
 

leatherback

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Cork bark JBP are VERY hard to propagate without grafting. I would venture a guess and you will find less than 1% of them on their own roots. The rest is grafted. (Some people have no clue of this cultivar, so be careful who you take advise from)

Why this is done? Well, one reason for grafting: Cultivars typically do not reproduce true-to-form from seed, and are thus propagated by a-sexual routes: cuttings / layers / .. IF a cultivar roots poorly OR it is difficult to get them to root, grafting is choosen. Pines in general are difficult to get to root as cutting and layer.

For some species it is also know that they perform poorly on their own roots when not in their native climate. This is e.g., the case for Japanese white pine, which you often find on roots of Japanese black pine.

And then you have the more commercial reason: It is sometimes just easier. Japanese maple grows well from seed. Without effort you can grow thousands of them. If you have a bunch of deshojo stock trees, you can thus create thousands of grafted deshojo in a few days. Grafting is, when done by and experienced grafter, very successful and low-effort. Taking cuttings of maples requires a lot more work, and a higher risk (One fungal infection can wipe out hundreds of cuttings). So for commercial propagation it is easier to not go the cuttings route.

For bonsai you want to avoid grafted trees where possible. (But see above). For many species which are commercially grafted it is very possible to air layer the cultivar from the roots and have a healthy plant afterwards. For cork back pine this is less so.
 

Shibui

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Root stock can have a big impact on the tree grown.
For many species that have been grafted for centuries root stock s with known traits have been developed. In apples we have a range of different root stocks that can confer size characteristics, disease resistance and cold hardiness on the trees that are grown on them. I can get the same variety of apple that will only grow 2m tall or 6m tall depending on the root stock selected. I can get an apple tree that is blight and woolly aphid resistant or not resistant depending on the root stock selected
The root stock selected for citrus can confer cold hardiness, size, tolerance of clay or sandy soils, etc. I believe different root stocks can also influence taste of the fruit.
I can graft desert loving Eremophilas onto Myoporum root stock so they will actually grow in our cooler, wetter climate where the same plant not grafted will only live a few months in our climate.

As mentioned above, sometimes it is that the variety just won't grow well on its own roots so the only reliable way to grow them is by grafting onto a stronger, compatible stock. Cork bark Japanese pine is one of those as it is extremely difficult to grow otherwise.
Most pine cultivars will be grafted because they are so difficult and slow to grow as cuttings or layers.

Commercially it is quicker and more economic to graft many varieties that are slow or difficult to propagate as cuttings or the much slower layering.

In bonsai grafting has recently got a bad name as many commercial grafts are not really suited to bonsai. There are, however, many extremely good grafted bonsai. In many of these the grafts are not even visible, usually because they were grafted with bonsai in mind so the grafts are well done and in positions that do not stand out. There is nothing about grafting that precludes a tree as bonsai but badly done grafts look terrible so choose grafted stock with care or choose ungrafted stock.

I the case of cork bark pine it is probably generally assumed that grafting is the only viable way to grow them so they are not always specified as grafted. Unfortunately if you want the great corky bark you are also going to have to have a grafted tree and that stock will not have the corky bark so there will always be a big difference in the trunk at graft point. The only way I know round that is to graft really low - right into the roots - so the change of bark is hidden in the nebari. Some bonsai growers have perfected that technique but it certainly adds difficulty and reduces grafting rates so you should expect to pay a premium for trees that have such grafts.
 

Mikecheck123

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Tl;dr: By every aspect of vegetative propagation, grafting is far superior.

So it's primarily simply economics for the quickest and easiest way to sell the most fancy cultivars that can't be propagated by seed. Japanese maples are a prime example because seeds are not cultivar-stable (and thus the cultivars can only be propagated by vegetative means).

So for you, Mr. Nurseryman, your options are:
Airlayering
Cuttings
Grafting

Airlayering:
Skill required: high
Recovery required before sale: at least a full growing season
Time required to airlayer: long (5 minutes).
Material yield from parent plant: small--(airlayers can't be in serial).
Success rate: good

Cuttings:
Skill required: medium
Recovery required before sale: at least a full growing season
Time to make a cutting: Short
Material yield from parent plant: high
Success rate: good to poor

Grafting:
Skill required: low
Recovery required before sale: A few days or weeks
Time required to graft: Short
Material yield from parent plant: a lot
Success rate: high

Now you might be wondering, where does the understock come from? A. Seeds.

Think about this example: if you have one mature fancy cultivar and 1000 seeds, with grafting, in two years you can have 1000 fancy cultivars ready to sell.

This is why it's very uncommon to encounter an ungrafted Japanese maple for sale, unless it's from a specialty bonsai nursery.
 

Adair M

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Whoa! Most of the posts in this thread are totally misguided.

Grafting is very, very common in the bonsai world. Many of the great Japanese trees we see in pictures have been grafted in one way or another.

Grafting is a very useful skill to have. Using grafts, it’s possible to place a branch where you want one. Using grafts, it’s possible to completely change the foliage on a trunk with poor foliage. Using grafts, it’s possible to grow cultivars of trees that don’t grow from seed.

Let me reiterate: Many of the best bonsai in the world are grafted, and would not exist, were they not grafted.

That said...

Not all grafted trees make good bonsai. In general, the landscape industry grafted trees usually are inferior because they are not concerned with the aesthics of the lower trunk. They graft to create a specimen of a tree that has desirable characteristics. Any named cultivar has to be propogated by asexual means by grafting, cuttings, or layers. As described in a post above, the most economical method is by grafting.

In the bonsai world, the skill of grafting is taken to another level. Sometimes, it IS to just create a new tree. But the graft is done in such a way as to hide it as much as possible. On some trees, that means the graft is placed as close to the roots as possible. On some trees, the graft might be higher, but the tree is trained to have a branch that obscures the view of the graft union.

Some trees might get branches placed on to places where the artist wants them. Some trees can be thread grafted, or approach grafted using branches from the same tree. Or a scion can be taken from one place on a tree then cleft grafted on another position on the tree.

Japanese White Pines are commonly grafted onto Japanese Black Pine stock. Why? It is NOT because JWP roots are weak! LOL!!! It’s because that beautiful tight tufted blue foliage is rare In nature. Many JWP seedlings have longish loose green needles that curl a bit. The foliage of most JWP seedlings would make for poor bonsai! We associate JWP with the beautiful foliage, and unfortunately JWP does not pass that along via seed. Cuttings rarely take, less than 1%, and layers rarely take. So, the best way to propogate is via grafts. Another issue is it takes JWP at least 2 decades, if not 3, to produce mature, flaky bark. Grafting onto JBP will produce a trunk that looks “old” within about 8 years. Finally, the JBP trunk thickens at a faster rate than does JWP. Therefore, in Japan there is an industry that can produce lots of JWP trees grafted on JBP trunks in an economical manner.

There’s a LOT more to say about grafting, but this post is already too long. Suffice it to say, grafting is a way to create superior bonsai from inferior material if the skill is applied intelligently.
 

leatherback

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It is NOT because JWP roots are weak! LOL!!
Sorry, but I disagree :)
In fact, this was exactly the point made when we looked at white pines at the nursery I take classes; That they had much more trouble keeping the old JWP on their own roots than the grafted ones.

Which does not take away from the observation that
We associate JWP with the beautiful foliage, and unfortunately JWP does not pass that along via seed.
 

Firstflush

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Do any of the famous several hundred year old pines with associated papers of Japanese family ownership that survived the bombs of Nagasaki and Heroshima have grafts?
 

Adair M

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Sorry, but I disagree :)
In fact, this was exactly the point made when we looked at white pines at the nursery I take classes; That they had much more trouble keeping the old JWP on their own roots than the grafted ones.

Which does not take away from the observation that
A problem that you’re overlooking is that many of the old grafted JWP on JBP grafts fail. JBP puts on wood faster than JWP. Over time, the graft unions can fail. That is, the cambium of the JBP and JWP move apart, and the tree fails.

Brian Van Fleet and Owen Reich have both experienced this.

I have a Kokonoe JWP that was once a graft on JBP. It ground layered itself, and developed a second set of roots. One JBP set, and one JWP set. The JBP set was removed. It’s now on JWP roots, and is thriving. The fact that it is on it’s own roots makes it at least 10 times more valuable than if it were still grafted on JBP. It’s very happy living on it’s own roots.

I also have several Zuisho JWP on their own roots. They were created by air layering. (Kokonoe and Zuisho are pretty much the only cultivars of JWP that are known to layer well. Other varieties might layer, just not reliably.). My Zuisho have no problem living on their own roots.

AND, I have a couple JWP that are older, but don’t appear to be grafts. They must have been grown from seed. I have no problem growing them, either.
 

Adair M

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Sorry, but I disagree :)
In fact, this was exactly the point made when we looked at white pines at the nursery I take classes; That they had much more trouble keeping the old JWP on their own roots than the grafted ones.

Which does not take away from the observation that
Jelle,

I have heard that myth that “white pine roots are weak, and that’s why they’re grafted” for as long as I’ve been doing bonsai, which is 50 years! In my early days, I couldn’t keep JWP alive more than a season or two.

But, once I became competent at keeping JWP, I found it no harder to keep them, grafted or not.

The two things I believe are really important to keep JWP: 1) climate; and 2) quality well draining inorganic soil.
 

leatherback

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Jelle,

I have heard that myth that “white pine roots are weak, and that’s why they’re grafted” for as long as I’ve been doing bonsai, which is 50 years! In my early days, I couldn’t keep JWP alive more than a season or two.

But, once I became competent at keeping JWP, I found it no harder to keep them, grafted or not.

The two things I believe are really important to keep JWP: 1) climate; and 2) quality well draining inorganic soil.
lol. I quoted and highlighted the word climate, and wanted to quote from my post where I wrote exactly that. Until I realized.. I did not actually specifically write about JWP earlier!
But yes, local climate is particularly for white pine important, as I understood it.

Then again, bonsai is full of myth and believes. It could be a matter of a few little specific things in the care that make all the difference :)
Happy to hear you can grow them on their own roots without issues. Maybe I should give them a second chance.
Maybe, once I am down to 60 trees. :)
 

Adair M

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lol. I quoted and highlighted the word climate, and wanted to quote from my post where I wrote exactly that. Until I realized.. I did not actually specifically write about JWP earlier!
But yes, local climate is particularly for white pine important, as I understood it.

Then again, bonsai is full of myth and believes. It could be a matter of a few little specific things in the care that make all the difference :)
Happy to hear you can grow them on their own roots without issues. Maybe I should give them a second chance.
Maybe, once I am down to 60 trees. :)
Yes, climate is very important.

Back in the day, I lived inn Atlanta. I couldn’t keep JWP. I did great with JBP. So, I gave up on JWP, and concentrated on JBP. Then, later, I moved north to the foothills of the North Georgia mountains. It’s cooler here. Summer days are a bit cooler, and the winters are colder, too. We get a little more snow than in Atlanta, but even still, we don’t get really harsh winters. Also, I started taking classes with Boon, he stressed using inorganic soil for all pines. Back in the day, I had used a mix of turface, pine bark, and granite grit. Now, I use Boon Mix (akadama, pumice, and lava all sieved to a uniform size.). Previously, I had never sieved my soil.

And, I became even more successful with JBP. One day, I was at the local bonsai shop, and they had acquired a nice JWP grafted on JBP. I took a chance on it. Well, wouldn’t you know, it thrived. This gave me hope that maybe I could grow JWP after all. Then, I got the chance to acquire a really nice Kokonoe. It was at Boon’s place in Hayward, CA, which is in the Bay Area of California near San Francisco. The weather there is very mild, and the nights are cool if not cold in summer. The Kokonoe had never been styled, and Boon’s Senior gave it the first styling. It stayed at Boon’s place.

Well, it lived, but it didn’t thrive. It stayed yellow, and just wouldn’t grow. No matter how much fertilizer was applied. It would put out only enough new needles to replace the old ones. It was obviously sulking. Even after 3 years! So, in desperation, we shipped it to my house in NE Georgia. Within two months, it was obvious it was happier here! New buds appeared. The color improved. The new shoots were strong. It began back budding!

That was 4 years ago, and the same has been true for every JWP I’ve aquired. Apparently, they love my climate. And, oh yes, they all get Boon Mix soil.
 

sorce

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Grafted trees suck!

Sorce
 
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