Underwatering or Overwatering My Indoor Tropicals...?

[Boise_Guy]

Hey all, I have a Chinese Sweet Plum and a Xylosoma Bahamensis that I got awhile back. I'm keeping them indoors in front of a south facing window. I repotted them into large terra cotta for training and used a sifted, high drainage 60% inorganic (cinder), 40% organic (pine bark) mix recommended by our local bonsai club.

I was watering them every 2-3 days, with lots of water in a humidity tray below them. Rocks in the humidity tray prevent the pot from sitting in the water.

I noticed the trees were really struggling, and I thought I was underwatering them since I was now using a high drainage soil mix and I wasn't as familiar with it compared to the dense soil they came in from the nursery.

So now I've been watering them every 1-2 days, and they are still struggling. Am I underwatering, or overwatering these guys? Now I'm thinking I'm overwatering (at least the sweet plum), and I'm going crazy so wanted advice! Or is there something else I'm doing wrong environmentally that could help?

Other notes:
- I keep a ceiling fan on and their is a register in the floor nearby, but its under the table.
- I've sprayed for insects and fungus with both an all in one insecticide/fungicide, as well as a neem oil/dishsoap mix.
- Tea bag fertilizers with only organic fertilizers are in the pots and watered over to slowly release nutrients.
- I try to use the stick in the pot method to gauge wetness...but honestly, I can't tell with this method very well yet...

I really appreciate any advice!

 

[Anthony]

I can only speak for the Sageretia t [ and it is a zone 7 shrub from China, probably zone 8 in a pot ] used as a hedge in China.
NOT TROPICAL

Try less water, and allow to slightly wilt.
Our soil mix uses less than 1/3 organic by volume and the rest is inorganic.
As usual get some cuttings, to experiment on.

Repot every 2 to 3 years and the shrub should be root bound. Lift the plant with pot carefully to check for root
Good Day
Anthony

In training.
bound state.

 

[Cypress187]

You shouldn't feed sick tree's and the fan will cause more dry air against your tree (maybe mist it sometimes).

 

[Cadillactaste]

I would maybe hold off on fertilizer until they start looking healthier. It's never good to fertlize a stressed plant/tree. The register under the table...it isn't the table they are resting on is it? That might pose a problem...with furnaces working now...at least in my neck of the woods.

I'm not sure the ceiling fan would hurt them. But the vicinity near your heat register could be factoring in. That...or they might be just fussing up after the root work to some degree. How long ago where they repotted?

 

[Boise_Guy]

Repotted 2 weeks ago. The fertilizer thing is fair, and you guys are right that I'm sure it isn't helping things (I know better). It is a slow release tea bag setup, but I will definitely take it out until things are under control.

I have my doubts the register is a problem...the table has two shelves and the pots are on the top most one, plus we haven't had the heat on yet. I don't think this is the issue, but of course I'm not sure which is why I'm here.

The ceiling fan I've had on low just to keep some airflow as I've been a bit concerned about bugs and what not. I also have my doubts that is the real problem. My gut still tells me I'm watering too much or too little and that I'm just too new to bonsai and plants and these specific trees and setups in particular to be able to diagnose it.

 

[Cadillactaste]

So the table they are on...is the one above the register. Anyway of closing the vent? We've had our heat on for awhile now...but, before then we had the AC going through the vents. Is this the case with your vents? I've read a numerous times having them near vents can pose problems. You have air being forced from a vent...it most likely coming up around the table when on. (If you have AC going) were these trees outdoors prior with no issues? Or always kept inside struggling to be happy or just started to decline after root prune?

The stick method if it's damp when you pull it out...you don't water. It's not that difficult but, I recall when much earlier on I second guessed myself.

 

[sorce]

For how lomg have you been watering more?

Sorce

 

[sorce]

Cinder? Like charcoal?

Sorce

 

[GrimLore]

I really appreciate any advice!

There is a few things I can see in the pictures. They appear to be right next to a window which is not ok at night as they will get to cold. They "appear to be darkening which in "most" cases would be overwatering. Fertilizer is not medicine - don't use any until they acclimate. They might drop all leaf until then but if healthy they will sprout new. Just observations based on the photos. Perhaps the cold night air next to the windows combined with humidity trays is the real problem.

Grimmy

 

[Boise_Guy]

The cinder is not charcoal. Its an igneous rock we find in pebble form near here. The local bonsai folk swear by it. Wiki - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinder
Attached is a picture of the Sweet Plum after repotting when it was doing much better (2 weeks ago, after repot). It shows the cinder rock a bit better. Keep in mind the cinder on top is an aesthetic layer that is nearly all cinder...the soil mix just below that top layer is 40% pine bark as well.

I've been watering it more for almost a week I'd say. Before that I hadn't noticed much unhealthiness, but it was only just repotted a week prior to that. I started watering more when I saw the tree not feeling so well. Before repotting the tree was doing alright, but was in a shoddy nursery pot and pure dirt soil mix. I've added a pic of the sweet plum root ball in between repotting as well.

I can close the vent yes, we haven't had AC on either, but the fan for the air system is always on, so it is blowing air.

 

[Boise_Guy]

Temperatures have gotten markedly colder in the last week or 2...and without us having to turn on heat yet, there could well be some large temp swings by the window over night... Maybe I turn heat on so it doesn't get too cold and I leave the vent below two tier table open...? I've also heard it suggested to put a towel between the tree and window to help insulate against cold/draft coming in from the window... I'll try that too.

 

[sorce]

Going from soil to that......

I would water twice a day.
Flush watering heavy.

I bet that'll work.

Sorce

 

[GrimLore]

there could well be some large temp swings by the window over night...

They don't have to be even severe drops as the plants are stressed and I am pretty certain looking at the leafs they are getting to much water and/or humidity.

Try less water, and allow to slightly wilt.

He sees what I see...

I would water twice a day. Flush watering heavy.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Grimmy

 

[Boise_Guy]

Here's what I'm thinking then...I'll avoid my second guessing (and inexperience) from the stick method and use it tell when to water, get some heat going to avoid temp swings, insulate with a towel near the window sill, pull the plants back at night (for now at least) while putting them back near more light in day, remove humidity trays (for now), and diligently keep track of dampness level from stick method... Well at least this is the plan I'm zero'ing in on...

 

[GGB]

As an absolute newbie to bonsai (but not to indoor tropicals) I offer this experience ... I potted half my lime trees in fast draining bonsai mix this spring and kept half in (slightly improved) potting soil. The limes in the bonsai soil performed very poorly compared to their root bound potting soil counterparts. I know it's a vague comparison, but I have recently added organics to the bonsai group and they've all responded with vigorous budding. I'm not saying to go buy a bag of miracle grow potting soil but I am suggesting adding more organics to the soil

 

[GrimLore]

Here's what I'm thinking then...I'll avoid my second guessing (and inexperience) from the stick method and use it tell when to water, get some heat going to avoid temp swings, insulate with a towel near the window sill, pull the plants back at night (for now at least) while putting them back near more light in day, remove humidity trays (for now), and diligently keep track of dampness level from stick method... Well at least this is the plan I'm zero'ing in on...

You will soon see good results and be patient recovery will take a couple of weeks and they will drop foliage. Nature of the game honest. I just ook some pictures of our Tropical, Sub Tropical, Succulents, and Cacti and they show they are at all different phases of acclimating indoors. I am doing a follow up post here and try to see what others see and explain what is going on as well as the room.

Grimmy

 

[sorce]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Thanks. I don't want to be one giving bad advice .

I still think there are too many variables to be sure.

Repot time. Extreme substrate change.
Can't gauge what caused it.

I definitely don't want to argue with you Grimmy. Politely.
How do you know?

Thanks

Sorce

 

[GrimLore]

How do you know?

We have Tropicals and Sub Tropical plants for many years as house plants that go outside for our short summer. Some are 18 - 20 years old. GGB did hit it a bit when he mentioned go a little more organic as we do and also with Junipers. I am about to post here a few pictures showing several species at different phases of indoor acclimation and hope it turns into a question answer informative thread for many!

Grimmy

 

[sorce]

Thanks button!

Sorce

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I suspect you have some of both going on. It looks like the tree is in potting soil, or something heavily organic. Inside, these types of soils become hydrophobic, and it's easy to get to extremes in wet/dry cycles. Sageretia is a thirsty tree with delicate leaves, so it will be susceptible to getting dry. This leaf shows death from the outside, this is how trees look when they dry out, always from the tips of the new growth first:

The edge is dead, but rehydrated, so the turgor is returned, but the leaf is half dead. This area looks overwatered; generally pale and rotten:

If the tree makes it through the winter, I'd repot it into good bonsai soil. For now, at least be sure the soil is aerated so water can percolate throughout the root ball, and water when you think the tree will be dry in 12 hours. Use a chopstick as a dipstick. Search here for clarification if you're unfamiliar with the chopstick method.