Unknown Maple Trunk Chop Timing

[Bonsai_youngster]

Disclaimer: I haven't even been in bonsai for 2 years, at least one of my claims will probably need to be corrected. Please tell me when I get something wrong. I don't want to go longer than I have to, believing in something false. This thread is an all-in-one kinda deal, I want to know what kind of Maple this is. I also want reassurance on the timing of a trunk chop that I want to perform this Fall as soon as the leaves drop. I want a Shohin size tree... That's eight inches right??(correct me if I'm wrong) and I think the trunk has reached a nice size, considering it will continue to grow if I use the clip and grow technique, right? I want to cut about 1 and 1/2 inches below where the gnarly inverse taper appears and grow a zig-zag silhouette(I say zig-zag because I view this tree being very masculine. Because of the gnarly bark). Although I don't really have a good idea of how to achieve the zig-zag (I would probably need to angle the existing wood) I would love some advice on these topics, and any advise you think I would need to get where I want to be with this tree.

 

[Wattsy]

I am no expert but have lots of jm in my garden I would not trunk chop this yet as I’d want more girth on it when I did want to chop it I’d take it back slowly 1 inch before the last live branch first and let it bud out of the trunk lower down the photo ive included shows a maple that could be drastically reduced soon I won’t because it a garden tree but this is what I’d want to see before the chop as I said I’m no expert on bonsai but do grow lots of jm in my garden

 

[SeanS]

Leaves are a little on the big side for shohin

 

[leatherback]

OK, you asked..

The species you have there is not great for smaller trees. The growth is coarse and the leaves stay fairly large, with long petioles. So think bigger trunk and tree.
In line with this.. I see this as a feminine tree. The trunk just does noh have, nor will it get, the rough aged bark. It is a maple, and most (!) maples are too gentle for masculine look.

I would have chopped may, june, july to be honest. August is getting late for a response. If you chop at leaf drop the tree can do nothing against infections untill spring, and there is a risk of die-back as the tree is withdrawing resources at that time and might just abandon the top.

 

[Shibui]

Standards vary for shohin but I believe most of the west accepts 10" as shohin.
Also I reinforce what @leatherback says about coarse growth habit (large internodes means lack of ramification) and large leaves making smaller bonsai difficult.

No real scale in the close pics so only the hand to go on for actual size and it's difficult to tell where 1 1/2" below the 'inverse taper' will be. Most beginners don't allow for the tree growing back and space to develop a new apex after chop so aim way too high. First chop usually needs to be around 1/3 of final height so for shohin around 3" from the surface roots.
Be aware that chopping a (comparatively) large trunk is only the very first step on a long journey to bonsai. Growing a new trunk and branches and healing the large chop can take quite a few years.

I'm happy to chop maples soon after leaf drop but there is a small risk of infection through the cut surface through winter. Chop when active is safer but as this tree has more problems than potential it probably doesn't matter when you do anything. Just use it as a trial tree to see what happens.

 

[Bonsai_youngster]

I'm sorry, I forgot to mention the height of the tree, it is about 4 feet tall. The base is 1 inch,

OK, you asked..

The species you have there is not great for smaller trees. The growth is coarse and the leaves stay fairly large, with long petioles.

About the species, I have seen that some maples can reduce to a good leaf size. Apparently mine won't, what is this species, how can I identify it and... does it even still have potential? I feel like the biggest I'm willing to go for this thing is AT MOST one and a half feet tall. I wanted something that I could "complete" relatively quickly, and I love maple bonsai, so when I saw this thing I knew exactly what I wanted to do with it.
I will probably chop it the spring after the next, and make it my guinea pig tree

 

[Backwardsvg]

@Bonsai_youngster take my word with a grain of salt. If you like the tree so what if it doesn’t make the perfect tree? Do you plan on showing this tree and trying to win national awards with it?

You said above you love maple bonsai and when you saw it you knew exactly what you wanted to do. Then do it!! Who cares. Practice, make mistakes, learn and don’t repeat mistakes.

I say go for it and just enjoy the tree, I am learning I love an amazing show stopper bonsai but I also love a “not by the rules” small tree in a pot.

I do this because it makes me happy. Maybe ponder why you are doing bonsai to begin with and it’ll help what your long term goals are. And lastly remember that just like bonsai your long term goals are ever evolving

 

[Bonsai_youngster]

@Backwardsvg

Thank you so much for the extra encouragement, that really meant so much to me. I also enjoy looking at an extraordinary, and quirky plant. Upon further thought I will continue with my original plan... with some modifications. I'll let the plant grow one more season, then based on how much it's grown I'll chop or grow, another season. From there I will have to see what I have to work with.

 

[Bonsai_youngster]

Thanks to all who have replied, and helped me along my crazy journey that is Bonsai.

 

[badatusernames]

OK, you asked..

The species you have there is not great for smaller trees. The growth is coarse and the leaves stay fairly large, with long petioles. So think bigger trunk and tree.
In line with this.. I see this as a feminine tree. The trunk just does noh have, nor will it get, the rough aged bark. It is a maple, and most (!) maples are too gentle for masculine look.

I would have chopped may, june, july to be honest. August is getting late for a response. If you chop at leaf drop the tree can do nothing against infections untill spring, and there is a risk of die-back as the tree is withdrawing resources at that time and might just abandon the top.

How long after a chop do you typically see a response?

 

[leatherback]

How long after a chop do you typically see a response?

You mean, jump aside from pain? Never

 

[badatusernames]

You mean, jump aside from pain? Never

Maybe your trees aren't feeling as spry as they used to in their old age

It was a real question tho

I'm wondering how long folks typically expect bud break to occur after a chop, it sounds as though it can take some time and / or on JMs never happen at all if you don't leave a lower branch on it.

 

[leatherback]

I'm wondering how long folks typically expect bud break to occur after a chop,

With my ficus I had it after a few days
With japanese maples I typically see the first signs of growth in 2 weeks or so.

I do like cutting back to existing branches though

 

[badatusernames]

With my ficus I had it after a few days
With japanese maples I typically see the first signs of growth in 2 weeks or so.

I do like cutting back to existing branches though

That's helpful. I chopped after an air layer at the beginning of August but there's no branching at the bottom. It was strong, but I'm a little worried about it. It's still showing green if I scratch the bark and regardless I figure I'll keep it til next spring to see what happens if nothing does now - maybe I can thread graft a new apex on if it survives that long. Should have done that first I suppose :/

 

[leatherback]

I chopped after an air layer at the beginning of August but there's no branching at the bottom

You did not get budding on the lower trunk while doing the airlayer?

 

[badatusernames]

You did not get budding on the lower trunk while doing the airlayer?

No :/