Update on Elm Tree + One Question

[vdeschamps]

Dear Friends,

I got this Chinese Elm about a month ago. It arrived very healthy, and within a couple of days started to loose leaves. A week later, it lost most of its leaves. I realized that the tree was being invaded by mites. I bought pyrethrin and sprayed the tree, and got a new light setup. Now the tree is doing well, the leaves that popped two weeks ago are starting to fall again and yellow, while new ones grow.

Below are three pictures of the tree: when it was almost leafless and being eaten by mites; once it started to grow again and a picture as of yesterday.

My question for you is: is it too early to trim branches to control the shape?

Thanks,
Vincent

When it arrived (I miss when it was at this stage):


When it was in bad shape:


Recovering:


Now:

 

[KennedyMarx]

Trimming to shape won't help much if the branches and trunk don't taper. If you're trying to thicken up branches you should just let them grow freely until they reach that thickness then cut back. This isn't from personal experience, but researching Chinese Elm, it seems that you should let the new growth extend for 6-8 buds before cutting back to two or else you risk losing all the new growth.

 

[october]

It is too early for any trimming. Your branches are very young and as mentioned above, waiting until the branches have around 8 sets of leaves or the branch woodens off is necessary. Also, the 6-8 is a guideline. If you want this tree to get strong and you want to have a workable tree. You might want to let them gorw twice as long 12-16 sets. I realize that the tree will look terrible. However, for the training of elms this is a very necessary stage and a stage that might have to be done often to have a well formed bonsai.

p.s. Are you sure this tree had mites?

Rob

 

[vdeschamps]

Trimming to shape won't help much if the branches and trunk don't taper. If you're trying to thicken up branches you should just let them grow freely until they reach that thickness then cut back. This isn't from personal experience, but researching Chinese Elm, it seems that you should let the new growth extend for 6-8 buds before cutting back to two or else you risk losing all the new growth.

That's a good advice, thank you very much!

 

[vdeschamps]

It is too early for any trimming. Your branches are very young and as mentioned above, waiting until the branches have around 8 sets of leaves or the branch woodens off is necessary. Also, the 6-8 is a guideline. If you want this tree to get strong and you want to have a workable tree. You might want to let them gorw twice as long 12-16 sets. I realize that the tree will look terrible. However, for the training of elms this is a very necessary stage and a stage that might have to be done often to have a well formed bonsai.

p.s. Are you sure this tree had mites?

Rob

Oh yes I sure it had mites. I could see them crawling on the branches and on their tiny webs. From what I've read, Elms are known to get mites easily.

 

[vdeschamps]

A month later, my elm has been attacked by mites again. I am confident I got rid of them, and I also changed the soil and the pot. Now my issue is that the branches at the top don't get new growth, they look dead, and that the branches at the bottom only get leaves at their ends. So my tree looks really funky with a few leaves at the end of long branches.

What to do? See picture below.

 

[markyscott]

All these pictures appear to be taken inside. Do you keep it inside all the time?

Scott

 

[jk_lewis]

Get the tree outside and your likelihood of mites will drop by 99%.

And, PLEASE post pictures that are right side up!!!!!

 

[vdeschamps]

Get the tree outside and your likelihood of mites will drop by 99%.

And, PLEASE post pictures that are right side up!!!!!

I cannot figure out how to get the pictures right. They are right before I upload them.

Yes, the tree is inside and, since I live in an apartment with a micro balcony, I cannot put the tree outside.

What would you suggest I do about the strange growing pattern of the branches and leaves?

 

[october]

I cannot figure out how to get the pictures right. They are right before I upload them.

Yes, the tree is inside and, since I live in an apartment with a micro balcony, I cannot put the tree outside.

What would you suggest I do about the strange growing pattern of the branches and leaves?

This tree is not very healthy. It is unfortunate that you cannot put it outside. In order for this tree to survive, it is going to need better care. Lots of sun, air circulation etc.. Also, no fertilizer until it regains it's health. There is nothing to can do with the branches. The tree is not healthy enough for any styling work. Also, the branches are too young to be trimmed without risk of killing them.

The best thing you can do is to try to come up with a plan that the tree gets about 6-8 hours of sun a day. Also, showering the tree every now and again when you water might help. There is very little humidity indoors. Any tree indoors should probably be misted once a day.

Rob

 

[vdeschamps]

This tree is not very healthy. It is unfortunate that you cannot put it outside. In order for this tree to survive, it is going to need better care. Lots of sun, air circulation etc.. Also, no fertilizer until it regains it's health. There is nothing to can do with the branches. The tree is not healthy enough for any styling work. Also, the branches are too young to be trimmed without risk of killing them.

The best thing you can do is to try to come up with a plan that the tree gets about 6-8 hours of sun a day. Also, showering the tree every now and again when you water might help. There is very little humidity indoors. Any tree indoors should probably be misted once a day.

Rob

What the tree gets now is 16 hours under growing lights (2 x 4,500 lumens each) and misted three times a day. I am considering a humidifier.

The branches look like they are growing too long which takes the "energy" to the ends of the branches and therefore there are no new shoots popping.

Isn't it possible to cut back all young branches to force new shoots on the thicker ones?

 

[markyscott]

What the tree gets now is 16 hours under growing lights (2 x 4,500 lumens each) and misted three times a day. I am considering a humidifier.

The branches look like they are growing too long which takes the "energy" to the ends of the branches and therefore there are no new shoots popping.

Isn't it possible to cut back all young branches to force new shoots on the thicker ones?

The tree is very weak - cutting back at this point would likely only weaken the tree further. The best thing to increase its vigor is to get it outdoors.

Scott

 

[october]

What the tree gets now is 16 hours under growing lights (2 x 4,500 lumens each) and misted three times a day. I am considering a humidifier.

The branches look like they are growing too long which takes the "energy" to the ends of the branches and therefore there are no new shoots popping.

Isn't it possible to cut back all young branches to force new shoots on the thicker ones?

With elms you should wait till at least 8 leaf sets or until the branch woodens out to cut. If you cut back before this point, you run the risk of the branches dying. If you prune now, you might kill those branches. It is true you do cut back at certain times, but that is usually with mature and healthy branches.

It is very difficult to mimic outdoor conditions inside. When a tree is outside it is getting sunlight, but also, the pot gets warmed up from the sun. It heats the pots and warms the roots. This is something that usually does not happen with indoor lighting. The tree gets mediocre lighting, but the pot never really warms up. Trying to get sufficient warmth is difficult because you do not want to burn the tree with indoor light. Also, misting is good, but 3 times might be excessive. If you mist often, it is good if you try to not get the soil wet each time. If so, the soil always remains wet. The tree doesn't like to be wet all the time. Also, if it is sick, it is not taking in as much water.

I realize that you said you don't have a place to put it outside, unfortunately, that is your solution. It's kind of like have a dog that you don't feed often enough, the dog is continuously losing weight and begins to become unhealthy. Then, you ask what can I do. You either feed the dog more or make other arrangements.

Rob

 

[lordy]

I noticed that the soil looks much like garden or potting soil. It it were mine, including the mites, I would bare-root it, and wash the entire tree, roots and all in water, then repot in a basic bonsai soil mix. Then find somewhere to put the tree where it can get some sunlight and fresh air with good circulation, even if it means parking it at a friend's house for a few weeks. Drastic times call for drastic measures.

And are you involved with NVBS? Look them up on the PBA website and contact one of the people there and see if they can put eyes on that tree soon. They may be able to help you save it.

 

[vdeschamps]

I noticed that the soil looks much like garden or potting soil. It it were mine, including the mites, I would bare-root it, and wash the entire tree, roots and all in water, then repot in a basic bonsai soil mix. Then find somewhere to put the tree where it can get some sunlight and fresh air with good circulation, even if it means parking it at a friend's house for a few weeks. Drastic times call for drastic measures.

And are you involved with NVBS? Look them up on the PBA website and contact one of the people there and see if they can put eyes on that tree soon. They may be able to help you save it.

Hi there,

Thank you for your message. I just repotted the tree in "proper" bonsai soil from Dallas Bonsai.

If need be I will have the tree at a friend's house for a few weeks and see what happens.

Thank you for your advice,
Vincent

 

[vdeschamps]

With elms you should wait till at least 8 leaf sets or until the branch woodens out to cut. If you cut back before this point, you run the risk of the branches dying. If you prune now, you might kill those branches. It is true you do cut back at certain times, but that is usually with mature and healthy branches.

It is very difficult to mimic outdoor conditions inside. When a tree is outside it is getting sunlight, but also, the pot gets warmed up from the sun. It heats the pots and warms the roots. This is something that usually does not happen with indoor lighting. The tree gets mediocre lighting, but the pot never really warms up. Trying to get sufficient warmth is difficult because you do not want to burn the tree with indoor light. Also, misting is good, but 3 times might be excessive. If you mist often, it is good if you try to not get the soil wet each time. If so, the soil always remains wet. The tree doesn't like to be wet all the time. Also, if it is sick, it is not taking in as much water.

I realize that you said you don't have a place to put it outside, unfortunately, that is your solution. It's kind of like have a dog that you don't feed often enough, the dog is continuously losing weight and begins to become unhealthy. Then, you ask what can I do. You either feed the dog more or make other arrangements.

Rob

Thanks for the reply!

Because I am letting the branches wildly grow, they are starting to bend because of the weigh of the leaves.

 

[edprocoat]

Elms are usually pretty bullet proof, but this one is weak and the fact you repotted it while in a weakened state will definitely stress it some more. I guess your micro balcony is just too small to get it even a few hours of sunlight? Beyond that a warming mat might help stimulate the roots and I am sure you are revolving the tree to get lighting on each side. Dont worry about the branches bending once they start to harden and get real healthy you can always wire them. First order of business is to get it healthy, good luck with your tree, we all have lost a few its kind of like the tuition you pay to learn this hobby.

Another thought, have you considered those deck rail plant holders? They are usually fairly inexpensive and have hooks that hold a pothanging over the putside of the rail on a deck or balcony. They have a bunch of different models online at Wal-mart and the plant box holder for $6.00 would probably hold both the elm and the juniper you had in the one picture and maybe another one to boot.

ed