Update on Satsuki Cuttings

keyfen06

Yamadori
Messages
73
Reaction score
102
Location
England
USDA Zone
9a
Hi all. I recently posted a thread asking some questions about Satsuki cuttings, in which I received a ton of helpful advice from experienced growers. Yesterday and today, I have been separating the cuttings from their pots and giving them their own pots, making sure not to disturb the root. However, after leaving them to grow for 12 weeks - it turns out they rooted like crazy. I'm kicking myself for not taking any pictures of the roots, but it turned out they were somewhat difficult to separate. I was able to separate a total of 21 cuttings, some with more root than others. They are now in a mix of kanuma and sphagnum moss, (which their previous pot also consisted of). I've placed them at the bottom of my garden on a north facing wall, making sure they are shaded so that they can recover adequately from the repotting. I was quite scared to repot at this time of year considering we're moving into autumn soon, however if I had left them any longer I would've lost a lot more root in the repotting process. In hindsight, it was probably smarter to separate the cuttings earlier, maybe around 7-8 weeks instead so that the roots weren't disturbed as much. My only question is - was it sensible to do it at this time of the year? The roots were encircling the pots and it took a few root breakages to separate the cuttings from each other, so at the time I was feeling quite relieved that I had managed to catch this problem before it became more of a problem when it came to repotting in late spring. I'd appreciate any tips on how I can keep these alive after the repots (e.g do they need to be in more sunlight?) I've also been spraying them with cold-pressed seaweed foliar spray which I've read can help with transplanted plants.

Thanks.
 

Attachments

  • satsukicuttings.PNG
    satsukicuttings.PNG
    113 KB · Views: 43

Shibui

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
7,545
Reaction score
15,224
Location
Yackandandah, Australia
USDA Zone
9?
You can pot up rooted cuttings at pretty much any time through summer and into autumn. No need to wait for an approved bonsai repotting time. I pot on cuttings as soon as I'm confident most have roots no matter when that happens.
Breaking or cutting a few roots while repotting cuttings is no problem. They are primed to grow new roots so will just grow more to replace any lost during potting.
I've found that pulling cuttings apart with one long pull breaks roots. Jiggling the stems seems to help the roots slide apart better and reduces root breakages.
Provided you still have roots on the cuttings they should do fine. Azaleas don't need heaps of sun but a few hours a day would probably help drive more growth - top and roots.

The seaweed may make you feel better but I have never seen any difference with or without it.
 

Glaucus

Chumono
Messages
950
Reaction score
1,744
Location
Netherlands
USDA Zone
7b
Arguably, them having more time to grow more roots, and then losing some of them in a repot while untangling the roots may be better than repotting them early.
The cutting then have more roots than they need. Much better to have a few weeks of very good root growth than repotting too early.

Autumn is actually a good time of year to repot an azalea bonsai. And these are cuttings where you don't need to do root pruning to rejuvinate the root system. So not quite sure how this time of year worried you. And if you take cuttings mid or late summer, you kinda need to do a repot if you have crowded cuttings. If they are spaced out, they can stay in the original pot or tray all winter. I would give them more sun in two weeks or so. Temps are going down, on half cloudy days, you can put them in the south facing part of the garden. If it gets sunny, they just need daily watering because of the kanuma. Probably right now, with sunny days and 25C, all that sun would be too much. Azaleas aren't shade plants. They like sun. But they do like their roots to stay cool and damp.

If you kept them at high humidity using domes, bags, or boxes. Then you need ot be a bit more careful with sunlight and dry weather until they harden off.
 

keyfen06

Yamadori
Messages
73
Reaction score
102
Location
England
USDA Zone
9a
Arguably, them having more time to grow more roots, and then losing some of them in a repot while untangling the roots may be better than repotting them early.
The cutting then have more roots than they need. Much better to have a few weeks of very good root growth than repotting too early.

Autumn is actually a good time of year to repot an azalea bonsai. And these are cuttings where you don't need to do root pruning to rejuvinate the root system. So not quite sure how this time of year worried you. And if you take cuttings mid or late summer, you kinda need to do a repot if you have crowded cuttings. If they are spaced out, they can stay in the original pot or tray all winter. I would give them more sun in two weeks or so. Temps are going down, on half cloudy days, you can put them in the south facing part of the garden. If it gets sunny, they just need daily watering because of the kanuma. Probably right now, with sunny days and 25C, all that sun would be too much. Azaleas aren't shade plants. They like sun. But they do like their roots to stay cool and damp.

If you kept them at high humidity using domes, bags, or boxes. Then you need ot be a bit more careful with sunlight and dry weather until they harden off.
Thanks for the informative reply once again. Now I think about it, it does make sense that I shouldn't have been worried as I didn't prune any of the roots - I'm just used to repotting my bonsai in spring. A couple more questions, have you had any experience with using grit / gravel trays under your cuttings? As you can see from the picture, I've already started using it for a couple trays. Someone from my local club mentioned that it had helped his mature shohin bonsai and it had grew roots into the grit, however I've read that it could cause fungus problems for Satsuki's which can be quite hard to get rid of.

Also, in regards to overwintering as we talked about on my last post, will my cuttings need any form of protection in the winter? I was planning on buying a cold frame and putting them in there, as last winter I kept an azalea (not a Satsuki, a rhododendron simsii) in my garage which has no light and it survived - however I'm not sure if this was smart or would work for a Satsuki. Or will no protection work? I've noticed that I am 2 zones higher than you, and in my area we don't normally go into -C so I was thinking they might be okay.

Last thing - you mentioned on the last post that you were thinking of uploading a video about cuttings? I think that would be a great idea and would be very helpful for people like me. If you already have a youtube channel, would you be able to send me the link?

Thanks again.
 

Glaucus

Chumono
Messages
950
Reaction score
1,744
Location
Netherlands
USDA Zone
7b
I actually had a look at my own cuttings, since from your pictures it didn't look like they would have many roots. Maybe I would have been wrong and mine also have tons of roots already. Turns out none of mine had tons of roots. Some had none, some a few. Even a few that had a cm of new growth. So again it seems to be a bit deceptive. And more reason to be on the conservative side.

Your trays with gravel, what exactly is their purpose? I assume they don't drain. So that means when it rains a lot, you have to go and take out all the pots, then drain the trays.
Yeah, roots can grow out of the pot. I use trays with drainage to make to easier to immediately move 10 or so pots in one go. And yes, plant material, soil and stuff sticks to the underside of the pots. Then the roots grow out of the pot into this material. Even if there is just a little. But at that point, why not just repot and move to a larger pot?

I really have no experience with fungus problems with azaleas, ever. I have had seedlings in stale water (because tray had no drainage) that started to smell quite bad (sulfur reducing anaerobic bacteria), and while those seedlings weren't looking too hot, they were not dying, and they did not suffer from Phytophthora root rot either. Maybe it depends on how present spores of this disease are in your local area.
Based on my experience, I don't have a reason to think that azalea in fresh kanuma substrate get root rot. So as long as there is no standing water in those trays, I also don't see their harm.

Since your satsuki type azaleas are outdoors right now, they have plenty of time to harden off. If they have tons of roots, they have a bit more time to grow, and then they can go dormant. I do not see a reason to do winter protection. The only thing to look out for is when they wake up next spring. If they wake up, push new growth, and then frost hits them, that new growth will be killed. The rest of the plant will be fine, but that would be sub-optimal. And plants in pots wake up earlier.
So in that case, maybe just moving them inside a garage during the night when spring frost hits would resolve it.

As for Belgian indica (they aren't actually Rhododendron simsii even though even the experts refer to them like that, recent genetic research has sown), they are going to be less winter hardy. As a garden plant, probably they will be hardy in your zone. But they are said to be kind of zone 10 plants. It takes a few years however to get a true zone 9 winter that makes your zone 9 a zone 9. And then if they are in pots, they would need zone 11. I had a Belgian indica die outside because of frost. But this winter, which was very mild, I had one outside but inside an unheated polytunnel. And it did fine. You aren't really asking about the Belgian indica, but I would say that for taking cuttings, the additional winter protection they likely require, and their large leaves and large flowers, they aren't really worth the effort. My Belgian indica is growing, but it looks nothing like how it looked when I bought it. It seems this type of plant can't really deal with the elements and look like a high quality plant. But, my sample size isn't that large there.
If you do want to keep your satsuki azalea inside your unheated garage, then yes that will work. Note that if it is dark, it needs to be cold enough. If it is dark and kinda warm, they metabolize and run out of energy because of the lack of light.

I am supposed to be in zone 7b, near the German border. It's often the coldest or hottest part of the country, in summer or winter. But I saw a recent map where this area was zone 8a. So it is on the edge, and climate change may have pushed the border inside Germany.

No, I didn't end up recording a video. Even if I had bought a good camera and recorded some footage, likely I would have waited for more time to progress to show like a year's worth of progress.

For fertilizer, refer to this previous post by DSD:
I grow only a few of my azaleas in kanuma. Most are partially in peat-based potting soil that contains fertilizer already. And that seems to be plenty for at least 1.5 year of growing.
Like I mentioned in the previous thread, I did try to fertilize my cuttings to see if that would improve their growth. And it turned out to outright kill several of them.
But peat is considered a soil-based medium. In a substrate-based medium you cannot really over-fertilize because you will also over-water and wash out the excess fertilizer, following Walter Pall's theory, which seems reasonable to me.
 

keyfen06

Yamadori
Messages
73
Reaction score
102
Location
England
USDA Zone
9a
I actually had a look at my own cuttings, since from your pictures it didn't look like they would have many roots. Maybe I would have been wrong and mine also have tons of roots already. Turns out none of mine had tons of roots. Some had none, some a few. Even a few that had a cm of new growth. So again it seems to be a bit deceptive. And more reason to be on the conservative side.

Your trays with gravel, what exactly is their purpose? I assume they don't drain. So that means when it rains a lot, you have to go and take out all the pots, then drain the trays.
Yeah, roots can grow out of the pot. I use trays with drainage to make to easier to immediately move 10 or so pots in one go. And yes, plant material, soil and stuff sticks to the underside of the pots. Then the roots grow out of the pot into this material. Even if there is just a little. But at that point, why not just repot and move to a larger pot?

I really have no experience with fungus problems with azaleas, ever. I have had seedlings in stale water (because tray had no drainage) that started to smell quite bad (sulfur reducing anaerobic bacteria), and while those seedlings weren't looking too hot, they were not dying, and they did not suffer from Phytophthora root rot either. Maybe it depends on how present spores of this disease are in your local area.
Based on my experience, I don't have a reason to think that azalea in fresh kanuma substrate get root rot. So as long as there is no standing water in those trays, I also don't see their harm.

Since your satsuki type azaleas are outdoors right now, they have plenty of time to harden off. If they have tons of roots, they have a bit more time to grow, and then they can go dormant. I do not see a reason to do winter protection. The only thing to look out for is when they wake up next spring. If they wake up, push new growth, and then frost hits them, that new growth will be killed. The rest of the plant will be fine, but that would be sub-optimal. And plants in pots wake up earlier.
So in that case, maybe just moving them inside a garage during the night when spring frost hits would resolve it.

As for Belgian indica (they aren't actually Rhododendron simsii even though even the experts refer to them like that, recent genetic research has sown), they are going to be less winter hardy. As a garden plant, probably they will be hardy in your zone. But they are said to be kind of zone 10 plants. It takes a few years however to get a true zone 9 winter that makes your zone 9 a zone 9. And then if they are in pots, they would need zone 11. I had a Belgian indica die outside because of frost. But this winter, which was very mild, I had one outside but inside an unheated polytunnel. And it did fine. You aren't really asking about the Belgian indica, but I would say that for taking cuttings, the additional winter protection they likely require, and their large leaves and large flowers, they aren't really worth the effort. My Belgian indica is growing, but it looks nothing like how it looked when I bought it. It seems this type of plant can't really deal with the elements and look like a high quality plant. But, my sample size isn't that large there.
If you do want to keep your satsuki azalea inside your unheated garage, then yes that will work. Note that if it is dark, it needs to be cold enough. If it is dark and kinda warm, they metabolize and run out of energy because of the lack of light.

I am supposed to be in zone 7b, near the German border. It's often the coldest or hottest part of the country, in summer or winter. But I saw a recent map where this area was zone 8a. So it is on the edge, and climate change may have pushed the border inside Germany.

No, I didn't end up recording a video. Even if I had bought a good camera and recorded some footage, likely I would have waited for more time to progress to show like a year's worth of progress.

For fertilizer, refer to this previous post by DSD:
I grow only a few of my azaleas in kanuma. Most are partially in peat-based potting soil that contains fertilizer already. And that seems to be plenty for at least 1.5 year of growing.
Like I mentioned in the previous thread, I did try to fertilize my cuttings to see if that would improve their growth. And it turned out to outright kill several of them.
But peat is considered a soil-based medium. In a substrate-based medium you cannot really over-fertilize because you will also over-water and wash out the excess fertilizer, following Walter Pall's theory, which seems reasonable to me.
The idea behind my gravel trays was to increase humidity around the cuttings, however I’ve only just begun using them a few days ago so I have no idea if they will actually make a noticeable difference. They are just seed trays (with drainage holes) with potting grit in.

Also, a bit of a botany question here, I noticed today that some of the cuttings had started to develop flower buds. I removed all of them I could see, however since they were still developing they were in a bit of an awkward position to remove. I only managed to cut half of the bud off some of them - so will the rest of the bud just naturally drop by itself or will the plant try to regrow it? Any experience or helpful tips in regards to removing / dealing with flower buds on your cuttings would be appreciated.

Again, thank you for the informative reply - hard to find this information online especially from someone with so much experience.
 

Glaucus

Chumono
Messages
950
Reaction score
1,744
Location
Netherlands
USDA Zone
7b
You wouldn't need to remove the flower buds. At this time of year, all mature shoots form a terminal flower bud. With satsuki, these usually contain two flowers. These remain on the plant all winter and early spring, and then they flower. New shoots emerge after winter dormancy and grow from the base of the flower bud.

It is very common for an azalea cutting to either develop a flower bud or potentially already have one, when the cutting is harvested. I think if you keep them on natural daylight, this is even more likely to happen. Growing indoors with artificial lights or pinching the tip may prevent a flower bud from forming.
When I grow my cuttings indoors all winter, some of them have a tendency to actually flower.

If you damage the flower bud, the plant will notice and abort it. Which means it will go brown and shrivel. Usually, they stay on the plant for a while. They don't just drop.
I believe that if you remove the flower bud, it won't immediately regrow it. But I am not actually sure. I am wondering a bit myself about the effect of pinching the tips of shoots at this time of year. Usually, when I see shoots with flower buds at this time of year, these shoots aren't growing to do a whole bunch more of new growing anyway.
It is conceivable that removing the flower bud would encourage new side shoots to grow. If you prune late summer or if you have backbudding, producing immature growth, these are unlikely to produce a flower buds. Once these wake up again in the next year, very often they remain weak shoots that only elongate and develop an early flower bud themselves. They don't flare out into 3 to 7 new shoots, like a strong shoot that forms a flower bud and flowers would.

If you remove one flower bud, the one on the shoot next doors will stay perfectly fine and healthy. It won't dry up/abort.
Removing the flower buds once they start swelling up and gaining some colour may encourage growth on the plant elsewhere to proceed quicker. This point is debated, however. It is not clear to me that an azalea grows into a growth stop while flowering. That said, a plant completely filled with flowers does mean the flowers have water demand, and cast some shade as well on the leaves, affecting growth. Additionally, hormones produced by the flowers may indeed inhibit the growth of nearby shoots.
 
Top Bottom