Nah, the liberals will blame it on Bush.......
US Bonsai in 20 years?
- Thread starter yenling83
- Start date
Nah, the liberals will blame it on Bush.......
Attila Soos
Omono
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
For what it's worth, longhorn beetle infestations have originated in CHINA, not Japan. There are, I think, a new set of USDA import restrictions on 'dwarf trees" originating from the Chinese mainland. I don't think any of the proven longhorn beetle imports came from Japan...
I agree. I have seen that trend among some who are not afraid to break the surly bonds of stifling tradition.
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donkey
Mame
and the conservatives will blame it on Nobama.
Either way it must be the governements fault
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
I hope the optimistic views are correct but I can't help but believe that in 20 years much of what many see to be the future of bonsai will vanish in an avalanche of government bureaucratic socialistic programs. Those who collect will only be able to do so illegally, and those who look to importation will find, due to the continued devaluation of the dollar, priced out of the hobby.
If you think that the environmental gestapo will not have an impact you only have to look at California where thousands of independently owned nut orchards have been put out of business because they have been denied irrigation water in order to save some crappy little fish somewhere up line. It seems a fish less than an inch long is more important than the businesses and families that started their businesses long ago when water was available. Now because of this fish they are facing financial and economic ruin. It seems all that is necessary for a humane activity to be demonized and prohibited is for some environmentalist to discover some little known creature to be endangered by afore mentioned activity. I am all in favor of preserving the environment but it has gotten to a point where those who want to control every aspect of our lives use the environment as a club to beat us over the head.
What is more sad is that we allow it to happen.
If you think that the environmental gestapo will not have an impact you only have to look at California where thousands of independently owned nut orchards have been put out of business because they have been denied irrigation water in order to save some crappy little fish somewhere up line. It seems a fish less than an inch long is more important than the businesses and families that started their businesses long ago when water was available. Now because of this fish they are facing financial and economic ruin. It seems all that is necessary for a humane activity to be demonized and prohibited is for some environmentalist to discover some little known creature to be endangered by afore mentioned activity. I am all in favor of preserving the environment but it has gotten to a point where those who want to control every aspect of our lives use the environment as a club to beat us over the head.
What is more sad is that we allow it to happen.
Bill S
Masterpiece
Hehe I saw what I thought was a good representation of this, and a traveling Japanese artist did a critique on the tree and display, and although the tree was done well, he went off on the display aspect of it, so they are definately keeping to thier tradition.
Vance the other foot could be that due to our political leanings the "oil nations" cut us off in an attempt to turn us into a third world nation, and we have to burn all of our stuff to keep warm.
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That's one perspective. For another, read the latest issue of National Geographic which had a good article on water and Southern California. That region is naturally drier, and absent human intervention, cannot support the many lush green lawns, farms, etc. that are out there. Instead, there is a massive network of water that is piped into the ever growing Southern California area from Northern California and elsewhere that is very disruptive to the ecology of those regions. So from a practical perspective, I question whether it's worth the manpower, financial resources and environmental impact to make areas of the country more comfortable and "habitable."
I'm not a huge environmentalist or anything, but the issue goes way beyond one small fish.
No one has any right to tell anyone one else how to live their lives, as long as they are law abiding citizens. It won't be long before you won't be able to buy a steak , when PETA decides killing cows is too cruel. There are millions of people dying around the world from malaria every year. Anti DDT groups are allowing those people to die. When DDT could save millions of lives, sorry for the off topic rant.Who ever said the majority rules was a fool.
http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/articles/Fall02/DDT.html
keep it green,
Harry
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Hi Harry,
In my opinion, this has nothing to do with telling people how to run their lives. If there was plenty of water available for the farmers, that would be one thing. But water has to be piped into Southern California from Northern California and surrounding states. The demand has been exponentially increased over the years to the point where it is unsustainable and is causing environmental damage in those other areas. From what I've read, lots of Northern Californians are not happy.
Let's say Oklahoma had a ton of water, and Texas was one big dessert. Some people in Texas decide they want to grow crops that require a lot of water, and so they pipe it in from OK. At first everything is fine, but more and more people move to TX and farms get bigger, so eventually they start sucking OK dry - to the point that it affects OK's environment (fishing industry goes way down, waterways are dried up causing loss of wildlife, etc.). As a resident of OK, you would be fine with that?
So I see it less as an issue of telling people what they can do, but more about how practical the situation is. It's sorta like all those people living in Florida right on the coast - sure they have a right to live wherever they want, but it affects the rest of the country as we subsidize their insurance premiums to protect them from hurricane damage, and eventually through taxes if the government has to step in and start spending money on people who suffered losses.
Attila Soos
Omono
If the farmer wants to grow his crop, he better don't come to MY neighbourhood and take MY water to do his thing a thousand miles away. No sir, MY water stays in my backyard.
I am not going to tell the farmer what to do, but I will certainly do something about it if he tries to steal from me(meet me and my rifle at the gate )
This is what's happening. Some idiot decides that it woud be great to create a new city in the middle of the desert - cheap land, plenty of room. He promises paradise on Earth to everybody who pays into his scheme. He is not really an idiot, but rather a greedy billionaire land developer.
It's all fine and dandy until he runs out of water. Then he has no choice but lobby the local government, in order to try to steal water from somewhere else. In the process, all the corrupt officials are promised to get a piece of the action. Of course, his attempt causes outrage with those upstream, who are not willing to part with their precious water, just because the developer tries to get richer. Then the developer blames the environmentalists for his failing scheme. He also claims that he is doing all this unselfis act in the name of the community that needs water. This causes his popularity within his community rise to borderline sainthood. I've seen this happen too many times here in the South-West.
No, this is not about a fish. It is about greed and corruption. The poor fish is just a little paragraph in a literature of failures. The fish never had a chance, from the beginning.
At the end, the water runs out, and the place becomes a dust bowl. People who were sucked into this, lose their money and their livelihood. The fish is long dead.
But there is a bright side: the land developer and his extended family are enjoying their retreat in the Swiss Alps. There is always a happy ending somewhere.
I am not going to tell the farmer what to do, but I will certainly do something about it if he tries to steal from me(meet me and my rifle at the gate
)This is what's happening. Some idiot decides that it woud be great to create a new city in the middle of the desert - cheap land, plenty of room. He promises paradise on Earth to everybody who pays into his scheme. He is not really an idiot, but rather a greedy billionaire land developer.
It's all fine and dandy until he runs out of water. Then he has no choice but lobby the local government, in order to try to steal water from somewhere else. In the process, all the corrupt officials are promised to get a piece of the action. Of course, his attempt causes outrage with those upstream, who are not willing to part with their precious water, just because the developer tries to get richer. Then the developer blames the environmentalists for his failing scheme. He also claims that he is doing all this unselfis act in the name of the community that needs water. This causes his popularity within his community rise to borderline sainthood. I've seen this happen too many times here in the South-West.
No, this is not about a fish. It is about greed and corruption. The poor fish is just a little paragraph in a literature of failures. The fish never had a chance, from the beginning.
At the end, the water runs out, and the place becomes a dust bowl. People who were sucked into this, lose their money and their livelihood. The fish is long dead.
But there is a bright side: the land developer and his extended family are enjoying their retreat in the Swiss Alps. There is always a happy ending somewhere.
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By quoting your post Vance, I am not picking on you but rather pointing out some other views that we run into.
Trees that are collected from the wild are not watered by humans or any type of irrigation, therefore are not dependant on you or I, or creeks, streams, rivers, etc… to keep them alive. The areas that the best trees come from are areas that only see some rain in the summer to keep them alive. Most trees that we collect come from private land with permission (something the govt. can’t take away). There are the cases when we will go onto govt. land and getting permits, etc. is fairly easy. I think that if the Govt. does step in it won’t be in my life time….at least to abolish the removal of materials from the forest. There is benefit for the Govt. to allow some resources to be harvested. This is a regional thing though, and in the West we are pretty lucky.
As for bonsai in the next 20 years….. I typed up a huge reply the other day but hesitated to post it. So I will add this to the discussion~~
I think that in 20 years bonsai as we know it will be off the charts. Right now there are more high quality trees being collected and made available than ever before and some of the younger generation have developed the skill sets to maximize that potential, both in collecting of the trees and in what to do after collecting. We are far better off today in these regards than we were 50, 20, 10 and even 5 years ago.
We are watching the European bonsai scene explode right now and if we are paying attention we are learning from that and we are elevating our passion and our game to strive to be as good if not better than what they are doing. We have the native collected pines and junipers to compete if not beat them, it is true, I see it everyday and am one of many working on that caliber of material. So are others, I assure you and things are happening that are not seen in American bonsai. Give it a few years…..
My opinion is that there are a few key people in American bonsai that will drastically change the face of American bonsai in the 5-10 year time span. The quality of work and material will be elevated to another level and excitement for bonsai will be greater than ever before. I look forward to this and am excited to be a part of it, and know that right now the sky is the limit and we are just at a kicking off point.
Sure there are people who don't post trees on the internet, which is actually probably a smart thing…. And there are people who will always stay with sticks in pots and want to air layer a turd so they have 2 turds
….that will always be the cas,. (nothing wrong with this at all, not everyone will be a pro ball player even if you play ball on the local men or ladies league) But for every 100 of them there will be a few that do take it to the next level and be the best they can be and acquire great material, study with the best and learn all they can. It is all a matter of how bad you want it. Plain and simple!In the past 2 months I have learned an amazing amount of techniques, a new thought process and am inspired to be the best I can at everything bonsai….there are no shortcuts, wire is an art form and detail, detail, detail. Importance of soil size, correct wire size, tricks and knowing that you need an Engineering mind set when it comes to aggressive styling and bending. Bonsai in NW Oregon is growing faster than ever and will be put on the map in a huge way in a few years, it will just take a little time…..But keep an eye out over the next few years….Very exciting things are underway like never before!!
20 years looks like an awesome time for bonsai, but I am most excited for now thru the 3, 5, 7 and 10 year mark. If we want 20 years to be killer then we need to make that happen today and it takes ALL of us to accept the challenge and elevate our games. The single biggest thing to elevate passion, your eye and your collection is to be around killer trees. It could be at a public garden, a friend’s collection, a person you met in the club (who you volunteer to help for free) that has a great collection, a nursery with great material, etc….. If you are not around good trees on a regular basis then you will struggle to get to the next level.
Just my thoughts on it
Attila Soos
Omono
A lot of wisdom in the above thoughts.
Being surrounded by exeptional trees, helps you to see the big picture. It helps you to judge your own trees more realistically. You learn what it takes to create similar trees, or even better ones.
Until you become familiar with the top trees in the world, you don't really realize how much you don't know. The more you interact with these trees, the more you realize how much more you need to learn.
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Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
I hope you are right, I really do, but I feel you are ignoring a run away government bent on inserting itself into every aspect of your life. When it comes to the issue of armies of bonsai collectors ascending into the mountains with shovels, picks and saws how long do you think these misguided do-gooders will allow this to continue before they try to make a law against it.
Right now similar groups have gotten the ear of government and are trying to mandate how much salt you can use in your food. Remember how good theater pop corn used to taste? Had any lately? Do you know why it is different? Point being: if government can involve itself in what kind of oil theaters can use to cook their pop corn (regardless whether they are right or wrong) do you think bonsai collecting from our perceived pristine wildernesses will be allowed to continue?
Here's another good one. If in your travels you happen to find an eagle feather along the side of the road what ever you do, do not touch it, pick it up or take it with you; possessing an eagle feather, unless you are Native American, is a Federal offense. Ask those who live in Wyoming and most other bear habitats. If you are attacked by a bear and you have the means to defend yourself you can't without suffering the wrath of the court system. Bon Apitite Smokey!
Right now similar groups have gotten the ear of government and are trying to mandate how much salt you can use in your food. Remember how good theater pop corn used to taste? Had any lately? Do you know why it is different? Point being: if government can involve itself in what kind of oil theaters can use to cook their pop corn (regardless whether they are right or wrong) do you think bonsai collecting from our perceived pristine wildernesses will be allowed to continue?
Here's another good one. If in your travels you happen to find an eagle feather along the side of the road what ever you do, do not touch it, pick it up or take it with you; possessing an eagle feather, unless you are Native American, is a Federal offense. Ask those who live in Wyoming and most other bear habitats. If you are attacked by a bear and you have the means to defend yourself you can't without suffering the wrath of the court system. Bon Apitite Smokey!
John Ruger
Shohin
- Messages
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Styles come and styles go....
What's really interesting is to see the "progression" of Japanese bonsai styles. Anyone interested should take a peek at the old photos from around 1880s-1920s of the styles popular in Japan. Here you'll see styles that would be considered grotesque today. It seems that part of the issue re: American bonsai is that we have to ask the question, is bonsai an art or a hobby? If we consider it an art and approach bonsai as such, then I believe American bonsai artists need to consider their own artistic interpretation. It is one thing to master the techniques of Japanese bonsai artists,yet it is another to forestall creativity and not push the creative boundaries.
What's really interesting is to see the "progression" of Japanese bonsai styles. Anyone interested should take a peek at the old photos from around 1880s-1920s of the styles popular in Japan. Here you'll see styles that would be considered grotesque today. It seems that part of the issue re: American bonsai is that we have to ask the question, is bonsai an art or a hobby? If we consider it an art and approach bonsai as such, then I believe American bonsai artists need to consider their own artistic interpretation. It is one thing to master the techniques of Japanese bonsai artists,yet it is another to forestall creativity and not push the creative boundaries.
Victrinia Ensor
Omono
Don't worry Vance... Jason and Randy collect by the trailer load with some regularity, if one hears the numbers of collected trees available correctly... so they will always be able to keep your bonsai retailer supplied. If the dollar goes south, whether or not you can afford it will be another matter entirely.
V
If the dollar goes south, whether or not you can afford it will be another matter entirely. V
yenling83
Omono
As for bonsai in the next 20 years….. I typed up a huge reply the other day but hesitated to post it. So I will add this to the discussion~~
I think that in 20 years bonsai as we know it will be off the charts. Right now there are more high quality trees being collected and made available than ever before and some of the younger generation have developed the skill sets to maximize that potential, both in collecting of the trees and in what to do after collecting. We are far better off today in these regards than we were 50, 20, 10 and even 5 years ago.
We are watching the European bonsai scene explode right now and if we are paying attention we are learning from that and we are elevating our passion and our game to strive to be as good if not better than what they are doing. We have the native collected pines and junipers to compete if not beat them, it is true, I see it everyday and am one of many working on that caliber of material. So are others, I assure you and things are happening that are not seen in American bonsai. Give it a few years…..
My opinion is that there are a few key people in American bonsai that will drastically change the face of American bonsai in the 5-10 year time span. The quality of work and material will be elevated to another level and excitement for bonsai will be greater than ever before. I look forward to this and am excited to be a part of it, and know that right now the sky is the limit and we are just at a kicking off point.
Sure there are people who don't post trees on the internet, which is actually probably a smart thing…. And there are people who will always stay with sticks in pots and want to air layer a turd so they have 2 turds
In the past 2 months I have learned an amazing amount of techniques, a new thought process and am inspired to be the best I can at everything bonsai….there are no shortcuts, wire is an art form and detail, detail, detail. Importance of soil size, correct wire size, tricks and knowing that you need an Engineering mind set when it comes to aggressive styling and bending. Bonsai in NW Oregon is growing faster than ever and will be put on the map in a huge way in a few years, it will just take a little time…..But keep an eye out over the next few years….Very exciting things are underway like never before!!
20 years looks like an awesome time for bonsai, but I am most excited for now thru the 3, 5, 7 and 10 year mark. If we want 20 years to be killer then we need to make that happen today and it takes ALL of us to accept the challenge and elevate our games. The single biggest thing to elevate passion, your eye and your collection is to be around killer trees. It could be at a public garden, a friend’s collection, a person you met in the club (who you volunteer to help for free) that has a great collection, a nursery with great material, etc….. If you are not around good trees on a regular basis then you will struggle to get to the next level.
Just my thoughts on it
Thanks for posting this Jason, I like it.
John Ruger
Shohin
- Messages
- 470
- Reaction score
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I agree one-thousand percent...but I thing a big part of the question is, do we (meaning the American public) treat this as a hobby or an art form? Yeah, there are those that have elevated this form to high art, but why does not the public in general have an appreciation for bonsai as such? I mean those who practice this medium have the same level of appreciation as does the modern afficionado(sic) of utilizing canvas or clay. Yet, where is the American public?
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
"I" have been doing bonsai for 27 years now, so I have some insight. I have many close personal friends that have been doing it for over 40 years and some freinds that have been doing it for nearly 50 years.
What has changed in 50 years? Nothing really. The Pacific Northwest may seem like a hot bed of bonsai, but really it's like gold. Gold is popular for a while and then it either runs out and then everyone is on to the next hot spot. While the newest crop of professionals are back from Japan, I do not blame them for locating themselves in a region with many collected trees. Thats where I would go.
There have been many before them that have trained in Japan. Kathy Shaner, Boon, Dave DeGroot, Kenji Miyata, etc etc. What have these people done with their expertise to further bonsai in America?
Sure they teach, to those that can afford it. Sure they work on collections, to those with the resources to visit them. Working with world class material is not furthering bonsai. Making better bonsai is not furthering bonsai. What furthers bonsai are those that spend a life time bringing bonsai to the masses for very little or nothing and doing it for the love of the art.
Yuji Yoshimura was one, John Naka was one, Tosh Subamaru was one.
I am content with bonsai plodding away at a snail pace. It does not have to reach pandemic proportions. There are enough teachers available for those that want a quality education in bonsai and can afford it. There is enough material available for someone to have a masterpiece bonsai in America if they can afford it.
We have been doing bonsai for a short time here, yet, we should have been making better quality bonsai 50 years ago, there was enough inspiration. We have stepped it up here but have we reinvented the wheel, I don't think so. Should we? I don't think so. At this years Kazari I asked Kathy Shaner about stepping out of the box and working towards a more western aproach to Tokonoma Display.
She said; " Al, if your going to call it a Tokonoma then you have to display by it's traditions. Learn every nuance, understand it, and then think about stepping out of the box. If we wish to call this a Western Alchove Display Competition, then maybe we can write some new rules."
I can appreciate that. She is right. We take tradition and think that somehow we can make it truly something out of the box, when a couple of 60 year old Japanese books can show you it was done 60 years ago, and didn't stand the test of time, and has moved on.
In 20 years....we will be chopping trees, creating jin and shari, and applying wire. We will bend and shape and maybe buy a signature pot from Japan and display it in the club show where 50 people may see it and forget all about it Sunday when the game comes on
Cheers, Al
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"I" have been doing bonsai for 27 years now, so I have some insight. I have many close personal friends that have been doing it for over 40 years and some freinds that have been doing it for nearly 50 years.
What has changed in 50 years? Nothing really. The Pacific Northwest may seem like a hot bed of bonsai, but really it's like gold. Gold is popular for a while and then it either runs out and then everyone is on to the next hot spot. While the newest crop of professionals are back from Japan, I do not blame them for locating themselves in a region with many collected trees. Thats where I would go.
There have been many before them that have trained in Japan. Kathy Shaner, Boon, Dave DeGroot, Kenji Miyata, etc etc. What have these people done with their expertise to further bonsai in America?
Sure they teach, to those that can afford it. Sure they work on collections, to those with the resources to visit them. Working with world class material is not furthering bonsai. Making better bonsai is not furthering bonsai. What furthers bonsai are those that spend a life time bringing bonsai to the masses for very little or nothing and doing it for the love of the art.
Yuji Yoshimura was one, John Naka was one, Tosh Subamaru was one.
I am content with bonsai plodding away at a snail pace. It does not have to reach pandemic proportions. There are enough teachers available for those that want a quality education in bonsai and can afford it. There is enough material available for someone to have a masterpiece bonsai in America if they can afford it.
We have been doing bonsai for a short time here, yet, we should have been making better quality bonsai 50 years ago, there was enough inspiration. We have stepped it up here but have we reinvented the wheel, I don't think so. Should we? I don't think so. At this years Kazari I asked Kathy Shaner about stepping out of the box and working towards a more western aproach to Tokonoma Display.
She said; " Al, if your going to call it a Tokonoma then you have to display by it's traditions. Learn every nuance, understand it, and then think about stepping out of the box. If we wish to call this a Western Alchove Display Competition, then maybe we can write some new rules."
I can appreciate that. She is right. We take tradition and think that somehow we can make it truly something out of the box, when a couple of 60 year old Japanese books can show you it was done 60 years ago, and didn't stand the test of time, and has moved on.
In 20 years....we will be chopping trees, creating jin and shari, and applying wire. We will bend and shape and maybe buy a signature pot from Japan and display it in the club show where 50 people may see it and forget all about it Sunday when the game comes on
Cheers, Al
Good flipping luck !!!!!!!!!
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