Video Review

Vance Wood

Lord Mugo
Messages
14,002
Reaction score
16,911
Location
Michigan
USDA Zone
5-6
Just thought it would be interesting to see and review a current Video by a famous bonsai artist. I would like to know what you think?

 

chicago1980

Omono
Messages
1,405
Reaction score
2,653
Is there a photo or video of the completed tree?
 

choppychoppy

Chumono
Messages
720
Reaction score
1,306
Location
N. Florida
I wasn't all that impressed and I feel that the wiring work was very sloppy. I saw many poorly anchored areas and bad spacing and gaping.
 

Vance Wood

Lord Mugo
Messages
14,002
Reaction score
16,911
Location
Michigan
USDA Zone
5-6
I wasn't all that impressed and I feel that the wiring work was very sloppy. I saw many poorly anchored areas and bad spacing and gaping.
I agree. It seems to me that the level of teaching coming out of Japan is far better now than it was in the 80's when Kathy was granted her mastery. JMHO.
 

choppychoppy

Chumono
Messages
720
Reaction score
1,306
Location
N. Florida
I agree. It seems to me that the level of teaching coming out of Japan is far better now than it was in the 80's when Kathy was granted her mastery. JMHO.

Ive seen some other pros work and many many videos etc, but i did have a 'new' pro in my garden. My personal experience is Bjorn, but the trees he did of mine are impeccable as far as wiring and styling. Also the speed at which he worked was amazing.
 

Vin

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
5,257
Reaction score
7,645
Location
Panama City, FL Zone 9a/8b Centr
USDA Zone
8b
Hmmmm. To be fair, we are always looking for dramatic results when we see these types of videos. Although the last images aren't what I was expecting, it doesn't seem like Kathy was finished with her presentation. Just my thoughts.
 

Wilson

Masterpiece
Messages
2,353
Reaction score
4,384
Location
Eastern townships, Quebec
USDA Zone
4
I enjoy her approach to design, and her ability to plan for future development. Esteemed members here have worked with her, and their trees are beautiful. As Vin alluded to, I don't think she was aiming for an "instant bonsai".
 

Brian Van Fleet

Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Messages
13,959
Reaction score
45,886
Location
B’ham, AL
USDA Zone
8A
I agree. It seems to me that the level of teaching coming out of Japan is far better now than it was in the 80's when Kathy was granted her mastery. JMHO.
Sure sounds like you have more to that opinion, so perhaps you’ll share it?

I have no doubt Kathy was not granted, but earned her mastery. I have been granted opportunities to work with Kathy in multiple settings over the years: critiquing the Nationals, setting up local shows, judging, preparing trees, accents, displays, touring gardens, and in workshops. She, above most, is at all times teaching and learning. It’s amazing.

The fact that she didn’t turn out a finished green helmet should be points in her favor. What this partial video shows is very real insight of what it is like to be around her. She finds interest in everything, goes granular to macro and back again so fast your head spins, and thinks in terms of years and decades. She’s playing chess when most are playing checkers.

Bending #4 copper wire is tougher when you’re 70, but regardless, it doesn’t stay perfect when you’re setting primary branches by twisting and bending them; it was actually a topic of conversation when we were working on my pine in her workshop this spring. That demo tree is just starting it’s bonsai journey, it isn’t headed to a show next year. But, you can be sure that when it’s time to put a tree into a show, she will shred you on the details, so you’d better be ready; especially if she knows she can push you to perform at a higher level. That’s what masters do with their students.
 
Last edited:

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
14,402
Reaction score
34,873
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
Interesting! Kathy did a similiar demonstration for the Atlanta Bonsai Society. I assisted her by doing some cleaning out and wiring.

Kathy didn’t like my wiring, she said it was too tight. She told the same thing to our club, she wires loose because she likes to twist the branches, and the tighten a bit when twisted. She also said you can leave the wire on longer when you wire loose.

(My wiring style is different, and when bending a branch, I don’t twist, I tend to just bend.)

At the Atlanta demo, she also spent a lot of time creating Jin and Shari, before wiring and styling. The finished tree at Atlanta looked better than this tree because it was a shimpaku rather than a Prostrata, and she had help getting work done.

I did find her remarks interesting about Kinji moving to Atlanta, and about the shows in Kannapolis. She was there at the National Shohin Show, and was one of the judges. And we just had the winter Silohette Show there, and she was planning to come, but some emergency prevented her from coming to the show.
 

cockroach

Chumono
Messages
564
Reaction score
1,554
Location
Taichung, Taiwan
It be fair, she does show a knowledge of the techniques she employed. IMO!
Also, she does explain the loose wiring and her reason for doing it. I have seen many others do it and call it something fancy like cage wiring or the likes.

Having said that, I do feel a lot of material was removed that could have lent to a better ending. But that is just from my perspective on a 2D video from Youtube. Being there may have proven the options less than I saw. I sometimes feel, especially in today's thriller/drama laced society, that cutting off huge branches etc is done as a way to shock the audience into watching what a skilled person might fear to be a boring/run of the mill demo. I personally like the run of the mill/what you would do at home demo ensuring survival of a tree and health.

I would like to see the tree repotted and fine tuned a little more. I may have missed it but did she happen to mention what stage of development the tree was in? Was it satying in a training pot to grow larger/fuller? Was she going to repot into a semi permanent pot and start refining? This could explain why nothing "amazing" was seen at the end.
 

milehigh_7

Mister 500,000
Messages
4,920
Reaction score
6,096
Location
Somewhere South of Phoenix
USDA Zone
Hot
I agree. It seems to me that the level of teaching coming out of Japan is far better now than it was in the 80's when Kathy was granted her mastery. JMHO.

A little bush-league for you isn't it Vance? You make it sound like you have an ax to grind...
 

Eric Group

Masterpiece
Messages
4,554
Reaction score
4,854
Location
Columbia, SC
Sure sounds like you have more to that opinion, so perhaps you’ll share it?

I have no doubt Kathy was not granted, but earned her mastery. I have been granted opportunities to work with Kathy in multiple settings over the years: critiquing the Nationals, setting up local shows, judging, preparing trees, accents, displays, touring gardens, and in workshops. She, above most, is at all times teaching and learning. It’s amazing.

The fact that she didn’t turn out a finished green helmet should be points in her favor. What this partial video shows is very real insight of what it is like to be around her. She finds interest in everything, goes granular to macro and back again so fast your head spins, and thinks in terms of years and decades. She’s playing chess when most are playing checkers.

Bending #4 copper wire is tougher when you’re 70, but regardless, it doesn’t stay perfect when you’re setting primary branches by twisting and bending them; it was actually a topic of conversation when we were working on my pine in her workshop this spring. That demo tree is just starting it’s bonsai journey, it isn’t headed to a show next year. But, you can be sure that when it’s time to put a tree into a show, she will shred you on the details, so you’d better be ready; especially if she knows she can push you to perform at a higher level. That’s what masters do with their students.
Yeah, I will say this- I have worked with her annually for about 4-5 years now I guess... she always comes to our study group and I usually get to go for at least one day during that time...

I was at first surprised by the way she wires too! I was expecting some Bjorn-like technical mastery but my trees were generally just not ready for that! When STARTING a tree, she wires for results not looks. You are wasting your time (IMO) wiring for "looks" on a tree that isn't about to be shown... she anchors white where it is convenient, twists and tears wood open in ways that make you cringe... but she does it with YEARS down the road in mind, not "what will make the best looking tree at the end of the demo", and when working with our own raw material in the setting we work, that is what is needed...

Kind of surprised there isn't more "showmanship" in the final design of this one, but it just shows she doesn't change her message for different audiences which is a good thing.

As was pointed out, she clearly wasn't done with that tree at the end of the video either. She basically got cut off mid sentence and was talking about how additional branches would be removed years from now after getting more movement in them to make a better Jin...
 

Vance Wood

Lord Mugo
Messages
14,002
Reaction score
16,911
Location
Michigan
USDA Zone
5-6
It is kind of been my thoughts that the Japanese seem to think of themselves like extraterrestrial aliens with a gift of great technology for humanity that they will only parse out on a limited level. I have seen that for years starting when I first got into bonsai. You should see some of the first books that came out before or at about the same time as Yuji Yohimura book.
A little bush-league for you isn't it Vance? You make it sound like you have an ax to grind...
A little bush-league for you isn't it Vance? You make it sound like you have an ax to grind...
I have no ax to grind I simple posted it for two reasons: One, it seems that many on this site do not utilize this asset that is on the NET and two, I wanted to hear the different points of view on this video. As to Brians question do I have other purposes for posting this? It is only to get people asking questions about the way the Japanese have been dribbling out information for the last fifty years only to the level they feel they have to. My point: We have learned enough that we should question some of this information now coming out, especially if it seems counterintuitive of what we were taught before or what we have learned by applying what we have learned. I'm sorry that some think ill of me for doing this but you guys are talking about it.

I have found a couple of other videos that you might like to see.
 

Vance Wood

Lord Mugo
Messages
14,002
Reaction score
16,911
Location
Michigan
USDA Zone
5-6
To put the point back on the pencile; I am not interested in pillorying Kathy, I am interested in people's comments about the video and what you thought about the presentation. Of course I have my opinion as well, don't you think I am entitled to that as well as you? But is seems around here, especially during the last couple of weeks nobody has been posting any content that is worth talking about---in my opinion, relevant to me. You may not like me or you may think I have an agenda, but I've got you talking.

Here is another to look at that demonstrates what happens when you think you have it figured out because you watched something on Youtube and thought you could make great art if you kept cutting. By the way it's in German I think.

 
Last edited:

Anthony

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
6,290
Reaction score
8,388
Location
West Indies [ Caribbean ]
USDA Zone
13
I would say, she is a master and knows her stuff.
She is not a 5 years or so in the business, apprentice/
And thus she seems to be more interested in what may happen down the
road.
More power to her.
Thanks Vance for showing.
Good Day
Anthony
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
14,402
Reaction score
34,873
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
It be fair, she does show a knowledge of the techniques she employed. IMO!
Also, she does explain the loose wiring and her reason for doing it. I have seen many others do it and call it something fancy like cage wiring or the likes.

Having said that, I do feel a lot of material was removed that could have lent to a better ending. But that is just from my perspective on a 2D video from Youtube. Being there may have proven the options less than I saw. I sometimes feel, especially in today's thriller/drama laced society, that cutting off huge branches etc is done as a way to shock the audience into watching what a skilled person might fear to be a boring/run of the mill demo. I personally like the run of the mill/what you would do at home demo ensuring survival of a tree and health.

I would like to see the tree repotted and fine tuned a little more. I may have missed it but did she happen to mention what stage of development the tree was in? Was it satying in a training pot to grow larger/fuller? Was she going to repot into a semi permanent pot and start refining? This could explain why nothing "amazing" was seen at the end.

That material was “raw field grown stock”. But, it was raised to become a bonsai. So, it had been cut back a couple times while in the ground. But she said it was leggy, overgrown, with most of the foliage at the ends of long branches. She cut back a lot of foliage, not just for design, but to get sunlight into the interior of the canopy. To get backbudding and eventually new branches in closer to the trunk.

Please understand my next comment: this kind of demo is part of the problem we have with bonsai education here in the US. Nothing against Kathy, she did what was needed to start this material off to a good start. Her Jin work was excellent! But, the expectation is that a Master can turn a bush into a show worthy bonsai in 30 minutes! Which is just ridiculous! That thing needs at least 5 years before it’s anywhere near showable.

All we ever see at most demos is raw stock be given an initial cutback and rough style.

Rarely is a demo made using material that that been thru the initial styling stage and be ready for the first step of refinement. Why? It’s usually because of the cost of the material. Clubs usually aren’t willing to purchase an advanced tree, because the typical approach is the tree gets auctioned off after the demo, and who knows if the club will recoup their cost!

At the Winter Silohette Show, Tyler Sherrard and Juan Andrade worked on an advanced JWP with old bark that apparently was on its own roots. Not a graft. This tree was a gift from Boon to Tyler to celebrate his graduation from apprenticeship in Japan. This tree was not overgrown, it did have interior growth, but it had not been styled. This demo, any pruning was done not to induce backbudding, but for styling: positioning, and making sure lower branches would be thicker than branches higher in the tree, etc. Yes, some branches were jinned. White pines are mountain trees and they do naturally have jins, whereas JBP are coastal trees and rarely have jins. The end result was spectacular! It should be show worthy in a year after it fills out a little.

The problem is, material like that costs about $5000!

So, the typical demo cannot show how to really begin refinement simply because of the cost of material. (Tyler’s tree was not auctioned off after the demo! Lol!!)

There was someone there filming the demo, I hope it gets posted on the Internet.
 

chicago1980

Omono
Messages
1,405
Reaction score
2,653
That material was “raw field grown stock”. But, it was raised to become a bonsai. So, it had been cut back a couple times while in the ground. But she said it was leggy, overgrown, with most of the foliage at the ends of long branches. She cut back a lot of foliage, not just for design, but to get sunlight into the interior of the canopy. To get backbudding and eventually new branches in closer to the trunk.

Please understand my next comment: this kind of demo is part of the problem we have with bonsai education here in the US. Nothing against Kathy, she did what was needed to start this material off to a good start. Her Jin work was excellent! But, the expectation is that a Master can turn a bush into a show worthy bonsai in 30 minutes! Which is just ridiculous! That thing needs at least 5 years before it’s anywhere near showable.

All we ever see at most demos is raw stock be given an initial cutback and rough style.

Rarely is a demo made using material that that been thru the initial styling stage and be ready for the first step of refinement. Why? It’s usually because of the cost of the material. Clubs usually aren’t willing to purchase an advanced tree, because the typical approach is the tree gets auctioned off after the demo, and who knows if the club will recoup their cost!

At the Winter Silohette Show, Tyler Sherrard and Juan Andrade worked on an advanced JWP with old bark that apparently was on its own roots. Not a graft. This tree was a gift from Boon to Tyler to celebrate his graduation from apprenticeship in Japan. This tree was not overgrown, it did have interior growth, but it had not been styled. This demo, any pruning was done not to induce backbudding, but for styling: positioning, and making sure lower branches would be thicker than branches higher in the tree, etc. Yes, some branches were jinned. White pines are mountain trees and they do naturally have jins, whereas JBP are coastal trees and rarely have jins. The end result was spectacular! It should be show worthy in a year after it fills out a little.

The problem is, material like that costs about $5000!

So, the typical demo cannot show how to really begin refinement simply because of the cost of material. (Tyler’s tree was not auctioned off after the demo! Lol!!)

There was someone there filming the demo, I hope it gets posted on the Internet.

Basically we need higher quality demo trees.
 

JudyB

Queen of the Nuts
Messages
13,751
Reaction score
23,250
Location
South East of Cols. OH
USDA Zone
6a
Basically we need higher quality demo trees.
Or perhaps the idea of what is expected from a Demo should change. I for one have never liked the throw away quality of some demos. Not that the material is throw away, but that the things done to the tree compromises the future of it. I am glad to see that perhaps that is changing.
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
14,402
Reaction score
34,873
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
It is kind of been my thoughts that the Japanese seem to think of themselves like extraterrestrial aliens with a gift of great technology for humanity that they will only parse out on a limited level. I have seen that for years starting when I first got into bonsai. You should see some of the first books that came out before or at about the same time as Yuji Yohimura book.


I have no ax to grind I simple posted it for two reasons: One, it seems that many on this site do not utilize this asset that is on the NET and two, I wanted to hear the different points of view on this video. As to Brians question do I have other purposes for posting this? It is only to get people asking questions about the way the Japanese have been dribbling out information for the last fifty years only to the level they feel they have to. My point: We have learned enough that we should question some of this information now coming out, especially if it seems counterintuitive of what we were taught before or what we have learned by applying what we have learned. I'm sorry that some think ill of me for doing this but you guys are talking about it.

I have found a couple of other videos that you might like to see.
Vance, remember that at the time Yoshimura wrote his book was not very long after the War, and the Japanese were understandably reluctant to “share their secrets”. Also, they saw selling to Americans to be quite profitable, so again, they remained secretive. And, the whole culture of bonsai was secretive to begin with! Commercial bonsai was largely a family owned business, and highly competitive. If someone developed a technique that proved to be very effective, they tried to keep that technique to themselves! For as long as they could since it was a compatible advantage. Mr Sazuki who “discovered” decandling JBP, kept the actual technique within his own family for 20 years!

And often, the varieties of trees used was regional. So if a family lived in Itoigawa, those were what they used. If they lived near the JBP forests, they used them.

The business was handed down from father to son. When the sons finished school, they would apprentice with anther bonsai Master who usually didn’t compete directly with his family. And that family would send their son to someone else to train. In this way, the bonsai techniques were spread but also restricted to within a closed association of families.

Americans were not a part of that closed association. Even John Naka was considered a foreigner and wasn’t privy to the inside knowledge. It wasn’t until later in his career that he was able to learn about JBP decandling! So, he had thought that they reduced needles by withholding water and fertilizer! And so, that became how it was taught here.

Today, the situation is different. The Master’s sons don’t want to do bonsai, they want to be in technology. So, the Masters have a hard time finding apprentices who are willing to work long hard hours for little money. So, they’ve turned to foreigners! Almost all apprentices are non-Japanese! And when they graduate, they go back to their home countries, where they don’t compete with their former Masters. And they also facilitate international business where trees developed in Japan are exported. Pots, too.

So, to recap, the info we are now getting from the former apprentices newly returned from Japan is changing the way bonsai bonsai is done here in the US. In a large part, it was a case that “we didn’t know we didn’t know”!

Does that mean we have to style in the Japanese manner? Not at all! But the techniques for fertilizing, watering, repotting, wiring, bending, grafting, growing, refining, etc. that we are learning from the guys returning from Japan are advancing the art here. I can say that my skills today are far greater than when I started with Boon five years ago.
 
Top Bottom