Walter Pall's new book.

Adair M

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I'm sorry, I haven't read the book, so it's really unfair for me to dismiss it. However, other than the chlorine water thing, I pretty much disagree with all the examples of his "busted myths".

It reminds me of the thread a while back where someone was arguing that cut paste had no benefit, and may actually be detrimental. And offered some study as "proof". Well, that is EXACTLY contrary to my 40+ years experience of working with bonsai!

For example, akadama. I know rockm was paraphrasing the book, but "akadama's unstable" nature is precisely what makes it so wonderful! Lol!!! It DOES break down in the pot over time. Which is precisely why it works so well!!! Roots love it!
 

Adair M

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yeah, your head would explode ;-)
Probably! Lol!!!

Let me modify what I said about akadama. I think it's great stuff. But it's also NOT necessary! I grew bonsai for 35+ years before I started using akadama. Including Turface!!!

But, now that I have access to akadama, there no reason not to use it.

Same with organic fertilizers. I used to use 10-10-10 granules, and Miracle grow, etc. But now, I've gone organic.

And my trees are much better, much healthier now than before.

Coincidence? I think not!
 

rockm

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Or maybe it might have to do with your classes with boon and not a magical soil from the east. FWIW, ak is still more expensive and rare in the U.S. than other soils that are more than up to the task (and don't degrade into magical mush over a hard winter)...Your experience with trees when growing with Turface coincide with a lower experience level of how to water/care for them? The adage that bonsai can be grown in anything with the proper care is noted in the book. Other stuff is cheaper and more available...;-) just sayin'
 

rockm

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Just wondering if WP is in with "myth busting", or did he only do the photos?
He's not an author of the book (he wrote the forward section of it), but he pretty much adheres to most of what's in it. I think he's even cited it...From the forward "Too often experts are just repeating what they know from hearsay. Too often the experts have used the wrong, or at least questionable, practices for too long. Many have been doing bonsai for 20 years or more. Who wants to admit that he did the wrong thing for 20 years..." It goes on like that for a while...
 

coh

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Or maybe it might have to do with your classes with boon and not a magical soil from the east. FWIW, ak is still more expensive and rare in the U.S. than other soils that are more than up to the task (and don't degrade into magical mush over a hard winter)...Your experience with trees when growing with Turface coincide with a lower experience level of how to water/care for them? The adage that bonsai can be grown in anything with the proper care is noted in the book. Other stuff is cheaper and more available...;-) just sayin'
That's the thing people tend to forget...as they learn and gain experience, their trees improve. So was it the change to akadama, or the gain in experience?

I've read a number of times (Hagedorn's rant against turface in particular) where people claim they travel around the country and see trees with poor root systems growing in turface and similar materials. They further state that after repotting those trees into "proper" (read Boon) mix, they do much better. This is then used to justify the opinion that turface sucks. But it neglects the fact that in addition to changing out the soil, they taught the owners a bunch of things...repotting, watering, fertilizing, etc - that will on their own lead to improvements in tree health regardless of the soil.

Anyway, thanks for sharing some of the contents of the book. Not enough for me to justify a purchase, I want to get my hands on a copy to browse first.

By the way, did they address the claim that trees fertilized with organics are easier to bend? That seems to be a popular belief.
 

MichaelS

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"rockm, post:
Sieving soil fines less than one eighth of an inch is necessary--NOT. Sieving soil hasn't been necessary for 50 years.

It is necessary if you use soil (which I do from time to time) So...... that's wrong.
Always use Akadama--Nope, it's an unstable aggregate, high in finer clay particles that break down (unless it's the high fired stuff). It has no trace of organic material, but it isn't sterile as often claimed. It is used in Japan because of its aggregate structure, which can be replicated in the west with MANY different, less expensive and more suitable materials.

Yes I pretty much agree with that. However akadama is still a very good product. It is still better to use than high fired materials for some tree. Particularly deciduous trees in small pots. So...that's half wrong

Organic fert cakes are da bomb--Not really. They Look fancy and they were the modern way to feed 50 years ago. Now they're just slow to work, ineffective overall and maggot magnets if you can keep the squirrels from stealing them.

You don't HAVE to use them but most manufactured controlled release ferts are too high in N. Longer internodes and bigger leaves. Fine in the development stage but not for finished trees. You would need to carefully balance the NPK ratio to get similar results. The Japanese have had access to manufactured fertilizers pretty much as long as we have. (in fact they manufacture one of the higher quality slow release formulations - Nutricote). After the war they used them. They went back cakes. The very fact that they are slow to work is the one of the main points.
So....That's wrong
Let tap water sit for a day to clear chlorine--Useless fear. If it's good enough for you to drink, it's good enough for bonsai. Chlorine is an essential element for plants and is required in relatively high amounts anyway.

I agree with this. however, chloride is needed in relatively tiny amounts. So...that's half wrong
Biostimulants, like vitamins, auxins, cytokinins and salicylic acids or other plant or animal extracts are beneficial. Uh-uh, nope...commonly available INDEPENDENT research haven't shown any support for the claims. I will quote here "Most biostimulant products independently tested were verified to have no beneficial effects on plant health. Testimonials don't count. Testimonials are advertisements...What works in field soil crops won't work in a bonsai substrate devoid of organic matter and microorganisms."

I've already proved that is wrong. BTW, NO substrate is devoid of microorganisms. They are everywhere just waiting to be fed. (including on the mouse you are touching) So..... that's wrong.


Not a very good start I'd say!
 

Adair M

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Or maybe it might have to do with your classes with boon and not a magical soil from the east. FWIW, ak is still more expensive and rare in the U.S. than other soils that are more than up to the task (and don't degrade into magical mush over a hard winter)...Your experience with trees when growing with Turface coincide with a lower experience level of how to water/care for them? The adage that bonsai can be grown in anything with the proper care is noted in the book. Other stuff is cheaper and more available...;-) just sayin'
Well...

Here in Georgia, lava and pumice have to brought in from outside the State. Really, akadama is no more rare than either of those two! (Well, maybe I'm exaggerating a bit, but you get my point.)

I do have some bags of akadama in storage. Recently, I've been able to get bags of ClayKing from Japan. In all honesty, the cost of these would just about equal the cost of me purchasing lava, pumice, and akadama (or Calidama - which is really not similiar) and making my own.

And yes, it would be hard for me to prove that it is just the akadama that has improved my trees. But, I DO sift my soil, I DO use akadama as a component, I DO use organic fertilizer, I NO LONGER use turface... And my trees are MUCH better now than before.

So, taken as a whole, I have to reject the "myth busting" as its been presented.

In fact, I purchase a tree that was in turface. When I repotted it, it had a very poor root system. I did a "half bare root" repot into Clay King augmented with additional pumice. (Sifted, of course). And I'm happy to report that it's growing MUCH better than before. Clay King is an imported bonsai mix that includes akadama and kanuma. Kanuma is another vulcanic clay, but is more acidic than akadama.
 

rockm

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Hey, if it works for ya, it works.

I happen to think the Akadama Japanese-imported soil thing is mostly hokum and bonsai superstition based on what works and what's cost effective 5,000 miles away on the other side of the Pacific Ocean. I also believe that many bonsai practices have been adopted in the west simply because they're used in Japan, backed and promoted by teachers educated there. Might work, might not. Might not be the most effective way to do things, but damn the torpedoes...After working for a Japanese company for a while, I saw how Japanese practices, language and point of view can be drastically misinterpreted by Westerners. The same misinterpretations and inaccurate assumptions have been bubbling away in bonsai for some time, IMO.

I've paid for Akadama--used it for a few years. Didn't see much improvement, or much of any benefit. I did have pots full of mud in the spring, for which I paid dearly, though. I've also used turface, crushed granite and other locally-gathered stuff. Worked well for me and in some cases it worked spectacularly.

It's kind of puzzling that you've basically discounted this without actually considering the actual arguments in the book. My interpretations of the myths don't do them justice. in If this were written by some person with no horticultural education, or no bonsai experience, let alone both, I'd tend to write it off too. But that's not the case.

There are detailed explanations in the book about many (sometimes stupid, blind) beliefs American bonsaiists cling to based on superstition, no thought, or understanding of what they're doing. It explains why those things may not be the best for your trees, or why they're complete bullshit. I don't believe everything in it, but at least it offers some informed facts about some things, like soil, that are emotional subjects.
 

rockm

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It is necessary if you use soil (which I do from time to time) So...... that's wrong.


Yes I pretty much agree with that. However akadama is still a very good product. It is still better to use than high fired materials for some tree. Particularly deciduous trees in small pots. So...that's half wrong



You don't HAVE to use them but most manufactured controlled release ferts are too high in N. Longer internodes and bigger leaves. Fine in the development stage but not for finished trees. You would need to carefully balance the NPK ratio to get similar results. The Japanese have had access to manufactured fertilizers pretty much as long as we have. (in fact they manufacture one of the higher quality slow release formulations - Nutricote). After the war they used them. They went back cakes. The very fact that they are slow to work is the one of the main points.
So....That's wrong


I agree with this. however, chloride is needed in relatively tiny amounts. So...that's half wrong


I've already proved that is wrong. BTW, NO substrate is devoid of microorganisms. They are everywhere just waiting to be fed. (including on the mouse you are touching) So..... that's wrong.


Not a very good start I'd say!

"You don't HAVE to use them but most manufactured controlled release ferts are too high in N. Longer internodes and bigger leaves. Fine in the development stage but not for finished trees. You would need to carefully balance the NPK ratio to get similar results. The Japanese have had access to manufactured fertilizers pretty much as long as we have. (in fact they manufacture one of the higher quality slow release formulations - Nutricote). After the war they used them. They went back cakes. The very fact that they are slow to work is the one of the main points.
So....That's wrong

I'd argue that "went back to cakes" BECAUSE they're cheaper and can be made in person. In post-war Japan chemical resources were scarce. We had just finished bombing the shit out of their manufacturing capabilities. The Japanese adapted post-war to many inconveniences--like using saplings for forest bonsai. Some bonsai practices are bound to the habits developed post-war. Some practices in Japan are ingrained, but that doesn't make them the best...
 

rockm

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It is necessary if you use soil (which I do from time to time) So...... that's wrong.


Yes I pretty much agree with that. However akadama is still a very good product. It is still better to use than high fired materials for some tree. Particularly deciduous trees in small pots. So...that's half wrong



You don't HAVE to use them but most manufactured controlled release ferts are too high in N. Longer internodes and bigger leaves. Fine in the development stage but not for finished trees. You would need to carefully balance the NPK ratio to get similar results. The Japanese have had access to manufactured fertilizers pretty much as long as we have. (in fact they manufacture one of the higher quality slow release formulations - Nutricote). After the war they used them. They went back cakes. The very fact that they are slow to work is the one of the main points.
So....That's wrong


I agree with this. however, chloride is needed in relatively tiny amounts. So...that's half wrong


I've already proved that is wrong. BTW, NO substrate is devoid of microorganisms. They are everywhere just waiting to be fed. (including on the mouse you are touching) So..... that's wrong.


Not a very good start I'd say!
And BTW, I think you'd be better off trying to refute the actual stuff in the book.

All of what you've posted here is addressed and mostly refuted--the author is a big fan of stuff like Nutricote, BTW. But then, that would require reading and arguing against the actual author's research which might require some time and effort instead of smug "half-wrong because I say it is" posts.
 

Anthony

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Amazon, has the book open for a goodly amount of reading. The writing is very pale, so be prepared.

Though I am not sure what Bonsai is - if you have a working soil, repotting is just cutting x amount away and under,
and fresh soil [ when refining ] and trunk size etc is ground growing.

As long as the above is working, just how much more do you need to know ?

Design however does require study, but does any hobbyist really care ?

I have placed the book on the list and when it drops to used book prices, it will be purchased.

Thanks for the Nutricote correction @ Rockm, we thought it was Israel.
Our trees - seem - to need about 12 N for our sun.
Nurticote has been used by us for about 4 or 5 years, during the Wet Weather.
Once again - seems - to work well.
Good Day
Anthony
 

Lobaeux

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I received the book yesterday from Amazon and have been reading it last night with my martini and his morning with my coffee.

I am not a book reviewer and have only made it through the first two chapters.

I glanced at the photos, but they're just that... photos. Doesn't get my heart racing like seeing them in real life, but they are nice.

My initial thought, and it's very initial is... it's a nice book for beginners. Like me. It's pretty generic, giving ideas and concepts, tackling myths and questions without being specific. What I mean is, it doesn't say, "use this brand of fertilizer" or "your soil should have 75% lava, 15% turface and 10% organic" or anything like that.

I have neither training or study in horticulture.

In short, without that scientific knowledge of horticulture, on initial reading this book is going to be very good for someone like me. I can tell you how a jet engine works, but I can't explain the chemical process that plants go through in regards to feeder roots, for example. This book will help me understand some of that because it's written so I can understand it. For more advanced bonsai practitioners or those with extensive horticultural study, it may not be for them.

As my bonsai collection grows, I can see me referencing back to it for issues I may come across or questions I may have. That alone makes it worth the price to me.
 

coh

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Amazon, has the book open for a goodly amount of reading. The writing is very pale, so be prepared.

Ah, so it does. Excellent! Thanks for posting that information. I don't remember seeing that option when I first looked.

Haven't read through everything in the preview yet, but this little nugget caught my eye (pertaining to use of bark as a soil component):

"Bark drains well at first, then it eventually starts to break down and hold more water. Roots readily colonize it at about the optimum time when the plant's water demands increase."

Sounds a bit like another ingredient we've been talking about...
 

Adair M

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Ah, so it does. Excellent! Thanks for posting that information. I don't remember seeing that option when I first looked.

Haven't read through everything in the preview yet, but this little nugget caught my eye (pertaining to use of bark as a soil component):

"Bark drains well at first, then it eventually starts to break down and hold more water. Roots readily colonize it at about the optimum time when the plant's water demands increase."

Sounds a bit like another ingredient we've been talking about...
Isn't that interesting, Coh! Because that's what akadama does, too!

Difference is akadama, being inorganic, doesn't rot
 

MichaelS

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="rockm,
I'd argue that "went back to cakes" BECAUSE they're cheaper and can be made in person. In post-war Japan chemical resources were scarce. We had just finished bombing the shit out of their manufacturing capabilities. The Japanese adapted post-war to many inconveniences--like using saplings for forest bonsai. Some bonsai practices are bound to the habits developed post-war. Some practices in Japan are ingrained, but that doesn't make them the best...

Quote; Lynn R Perry, from ''Bonsai'' A Guide to the methods of Kyuzo Murata 1964'' ....''After the war, these chemical fertilizers were used almost exclusively by the Japanese nurserymen for a period of several years. However, they have returned to the above- given organic fertilizer mixtures for the following reasons. It is felt that the leaves of the bonsai lose their lustre and the tips of the branches grow bigger around (courser) when using chemical instead of organic fertilizer. They also feel that the period of fruiting and flowering is reduced by the use of chemical fertilizer.''

Kyuzo Murata practiced bonsai for 70 years.....enough said. I think perhaps the subtleties of bonsai are sometimes missed by the ''bigger, better, faster'' western methodologies.
 

rockm

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[
They feel?
Very scientific.[/QUOT
Quote; Lynn R Perry, from ''Bonsai'' A Guide to the methods of Kyuzo Murata 1964'' ....''After the war, these chemical fertilizers were used almost exclusively by the Japanese nurserymen for a period of several years. However, they have returned to the above- given organic fertilizer mixtures for the following reasons. It is felt that the leaves of the bonsai lose their lustre and the tips of the branches grow bigger around (courser) when using chemical instead of organic fertilizer. They also feel that the period of fruiting and flowering is reduced by the use of chemical fertilizer.''

Kyuzo Murata practiced bonsai for 70 years.....enough said. I think perhaps the subtleties of bonsai are sometimes missed by the ''bigger, better, faster'' western methodologies.
How do Japanese nurseries do it NOW? I have not worked at one, but have known people who have. There is no real compunction against using "bigger, faster, better." The doses of insecticide used in Japanese bonsai nurseries escalates through the spring and summer, until the workers spraying it get chemical burns, so the "zen" approach being pitched here is a bit disingenuous...

I refer to Herr Pall's forward -- "Too often experts are just repeating what they know from hearsay. Too often the experts have used the wrong, or at least questionable, practices for too long. Many have been doing bonsai for 20 years or more. Who wants to admit that he did the wrong thing for 20 years..."
 
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