Walter Pall's new book.

rockm

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rockm, I have seen the book for sale. I picked it up, read a couple pages here and there, I did not see anything of value.

When the guy who wrote the introduction openly says that much of it is wrong, much of it is worthless, and the author doesn’t show any work that has been created using the principles in the book, I’m sorry, it’s fraudent. And then using a well respected bonsai artists trees to IMPLY that those trees were developed using those techniques...

AND, this book is supppsed to be “exposing the bonsai myths”!!!

Sorry...

BUSTED!!!
So, .I read the first two pages of some book called "Misery" AND the dust jacket. What a miserable book! ...good lord.

The guy who wrote this thing hardly says much of what he wrote is wrong or worthless. What he does say is that a lot of people will have a hard time with some of it because it doesn't fit with their agendas.

Look, I hardly believe this book is the One TRUE BONSAI WAY. I'm pretty much in line with what Walter said, HOWEVER, it raises some interesting questions and questions what many assume to be "true."

Read it with a critical eye for God's sake, (at the very least read what seems to be really REALLY challenging for you--your criticism will at least be credible)...Can't understand why some people feel the need to bitch about stuff when they have no idea what they're bitching about, based on only on limited assumptions and conjecture.
 

Cadillactaste

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I honestly tried to follow along...all I am getting is...there is false information in said book. But no one who has read bits of it...is allowed to discuss it. They need to buy the book so they can discuss how poorly it is written.

As a book lover...reviews of a book, sways my purchase. Several books in my bonsai library was names jkl/Jim shared with me...along with book reviews over on the other forum he has a post on which he shared links. So...scratching my head. I would spend my money on books I felt I had something to gain...not one I would be waisting my time on.

If a concept of a book is found in error. Why can that concept not be discussed. It's not about the book per say...but a concept...no?
 

milehigh_7

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So, .I read the first two pages of some book called "Misery" AND the dust jacket. What a miserable book! ...good lord.

The guy who wrote this thing hardly says much of what he wrote is wrong or worthless. What he does say is that a lot of people will have a hard time with some of it because it doesn't fit with their agendas.

Look, I hardly believe this book is the One TRUE BONSAI WAY. I'm pretty much in line with what Walter said, HOWEVER, it raises some interesting questions and questions what many assume to be "true."

Read it with a critical eye for God's sake, (at the very least read what seems to be really REALLY challenging for you--your criticism will at least be credible)...Can't understand why some people feel the need to bitch about stuff when they have no idea what they're bitching about, based on only on limited assumptions and conjecture.

Okay @rockm, let me say this again... Sometimes the wife says I am not clear enough... Amazon has the book on preview so you can READ portions of it. I read and referenced a page number with a statement I disagreed with. Just for kicks let's do it this way as well.

On page 70 Larry Morton writes:
 

milehigh_7

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Somehow that post got messed up. I had 10 journal articles cited supporting my opinion. I'm not going to spend the time right now to re-type everything. If anyone is interested in the articles msg me. if not I will assume nobody cares. :)
 

rockm

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Okay @rockm, let me say this again... Sometimes the wife says I am not clear enough... Amazon has the book on preview so you can READ portions of it. I read and referenced a page number with a statement I disagreed with. Just for kicks let's do it this way as well.

On page 70 Larry Morton writes:
You read an entire page of a two hundred page book that you didn't agree with and render an opinion on the entire thing and its author?
I honestly tried to follow along...all I am getting is...there is false information in said book. But no one who has read bits of it...is allowed to discuss it. They need to buy the book so they can discuss how poorly it is written.

As a book lover...reviews of a book, sways my purchase. Several books in my bonsai library was names jkl/Jim shared with me...along with book reviews over on the other forum he has a post on which he shared links. So...scratching my head. I would spend my money on books I felt I had something to gain...not one I would be waisting my time on.

If a concept of a book is found in error. Why can that concept not be discussed. It's not about the book per say...but a concept...no?
Well, it IS about the book. Read the entire thread. There is an effort not only to discredit the information, but the author also. I don't know the guy, but I can say at least he made me think aobut some things that are pretty much taken for granted by alot of bonsai folks (and some who are heavily invested in stuff that isn't really all that effective)

Do you trust book reviews written by people who have read the dust jacket and selected pages? I don't. In some cases yeah, stuff in the book is conjecture, but a lot of stuff out there in the world of plant growing is conjecture and some snakeoil. Need I mention Superthrive? It's "proven" effective by many folks, but it's worthless. I used it and found it so, reaching that conclusion myself. I warn people that that's been my experience.

If you don't want to spend money on the book, don't, but an opinion about something that you haven't read is kind of an empty opinion.
 

Cadillactaste

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You read an entire page of a two hundred page book that you didn't agree with and render an opinion on the entire thing and its author?

Well, it IS about the book. Read the entire thread. There is an effort not only to discredit the information, but the author also. I don't know the guy, but I can say at least he made me think aobut some things that are pretty much taken for granted by alot of bonsai folks (and some who are heavily invested in stuff that isn't really all that effective)

Do you trust book reviews written by people who have read the dust jacket and selected pages? I don't. In some cases yeah, stuff in the book is conjecture, but a lot of stuff out there in the world of plant growing is conjecture and some snakeoil. Need I mention Superthrive? It's "proven" effective by many folks, but it's worthless. I used it and found it so, reaching that conclusion myself. I warn people that that's been my experience.

If you don't want to spend money on the book, don't, but an opinion about something that you haven't read is kind of an empty opinion.

Fare enough...I do ponder if climate plays into how ones see things work or not work. Some satisfied...some not. Honestly, the topic doesn't interest me enough to make me purchase something that...sounds as much as solid wars can go. Something I don't care to test...

I take book reviews with a grain of salt...but...if there is controversy...why waist my time on it? Unless it's a topic that drives me. If my trees were dying and poor...and I was scouring to find something to be the cure...possibly I might read more on other topics. But...I don't care honestly about the book.

But...I still can't grasp concepts not being discussed. If one has had success doing something a book claims doesn't work. Well...it's like...right. I know better. That takes ones knowledge of the process...into an equation no? I guess for some...yes, others no.
 

Cadillactaste

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I won't quote directly, but a few myths according to the book--- There are literally 495 more, most with extensive, rational explanations.

Sieving soil fines less than one eighth of an inch is necessary--NOT. Sieving soil hasn't been necessary for 50 years.

Always use Akadama--Nope, it's an unstable aggregate, high in finer clay particles that break down (unless it's the high fired stuff). It has no trace of organic material, but it isn't sterile as often claimed. It is used in Japan because of its aggregate structure, which can be replicated in the west with MANY different, less expensive and more suitable materials.

Organic fert cakes are da bomb--Not really. They Look fancy and they were the modern way to feed 50 years ago. Now they're just slow to work, ineffective overall and maggot magnets if you can keep the squirrels from stealing them.

Let tap water sit for a day to clear chlorine--Useless fear. If it's good enough for you to drink, it's good enough for bonsai. Chlorine is an essential element for plants and is required in relatively high amounts anyway.

Biostimulants, like vitamins, auxins, cytokinins and salicylic acids or other plant or animal extracts are beneficial. Uh-uh, nope...commonly available INDEPENDENT research haven't shown any support for the claims. I will quote here "Most biostimulant products independently tested were verified to have no beneficial effects on plant health. Testimonials don't count. Testimonials are advertisements...What works in field soil crops won't work in a bonsai substrate devoid of organic matter and microorganisms."

And there are more. It's a book over 200 pages long, people. There are many more topics covered that we've talked about here. If you want more, buy the book. I am not going to post any more myths.

And no, I'm not a shill for the publisher. I just don't want to basically plagiarize the book here. I also don't have the time or room to explain and note the mostly detailed arguments presented in the book.

Not to seive soil...okay...I said I was going to read this all the way through, but...I personally seen value in my trees health by sieving. Sounds like an interesting book. But...I would be second guessing this ones fundamentals...with that one making me pause. Sorry @rockm ...I am doing this thread an injustice by not reading it from front to back...but it's lost interest for me...with what I read so far in.
 

Cadillactaste

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So I got the book last night. Read through a few chapters. Definitely worth the $$ if you can swing it. If you're a fan of humates, charcoal, drainage layers, or "natural" fertilizers, Superthrive (not surprising) among other things, you're not going to be happy.

The book, which DEFINITELY NOT for beginners, is worth the money not for the mostly bad photos of Walter Pall's trees in the back of it, but for the horticultural science applied to bonsai in the text. The photos are not even really part of the book. They're just kind of jammed in the back as an afterthought.

There are 500 "myths/busted facts" in the book broken into chapters on things like soil, roots, fertilizers and size stuff. The info is broken up into short paragraphs, backed by horticultural studies and the most recent research, like how calcined clay is mostly better than Akadama. The book says there is no real reason to be importing Japanese dirt to the U.S., BTW. It just doesn't offer any advantages. Also, for those inclined to include more than three ingredients in soil mixes, you're not doing yourself any favors.

It goes on for over 100 pages of stuff. Some useful, some extremely esoteric or brain fogging, but it's interesting reading and reference....And BTW, the info on myc apparently came right out of one of my "quit wasting your money on it. It will show up on its own" only backed by research...;-)
Seems...you did like what the book brought to the table...the comment on bad photos...was only selling feature that peaked my interest to be honest. Mr Pall and his direction he takes in styling his trees appeals to me. But your less than thrilled comment on that aspect...surely makes this not a run to the store to buy sadly.
 

milehigh_7

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Tip-toeing back in...looking left and right...

HURRY!!! SETTING POT DOWN

Shhh...backing out of thread.


Same... I waisted a bunch of time yesterday digging up sources and somehow I screwed up my post ... I am calling it, in the words of the immortal Bob Ross, a, "happy accident." Maybe it's a good thing but I don't feel like I need the last word today... Maybe I am growing up after all! LOL!

 

Adair M

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Rockm,

Much of the book relies upon studies done by and for aborists and foresters. Unfortunately, their goals for their trees are not always consistent with our goals for bonsai.

On another thread I started a couple days ago, I shared my experience about how to prevent needlecast on my pines. One of the things I do is use a systemic granular fungicide. A fellow cane on the thread, claimed he was an arborist, and stated that the ONLY thing that worked would be repeated applications if copper spray. And other forrestors agreed.

Well, in a landscape or Forrest situation, he’s probably right. Full sized trees are huge! And it would take an immense amount of systemic to treat an entire tree. But with bonsai, the trees are small. System could be absorbed by the roots and dispersed to all parts of the tree retry easily.

So, both of us are right, based eupon our reference point. In a landscape, systemics probably have little effect. But it can be highly effective in a bonsai.

Another example involves “wound healing”. Again, foresters care little about the aesthetics of the wound after calousing over has been achieved. They just want the tree to live and create harvestable lumber. Obviously, aesthetics are of utmost importance to bonsai.

These are the kinds of things I find off putting. Fake news. Or at least, he’s applying principles out of context. Kinda like having a theoretical physicist tell you how to wire your house. No thank you, I’d rather have an electrician do it!
 
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Hielonite34

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I've noticed that. Kinda like Elmer's glue. I've also noticed that it is less firmly attached. So, perhaps less protective. Putting the putty stuff on top keeps the seal against the elements working.

Why don’t you guys publish your own studies then...
 

Adair M

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Why don’t you guys publish your own studies then...
Don’t have to. My results are documented here, tons of bonsai blogs show the results of using cut paste, and you can see the results in person by attending bonsai shows!

seriously, the “scientific studies” are designed and performed for the benefit of forestry for lumber. Their goals are pretty much the opposite of our goals for bonsai.
 
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