Wannabe seeking master pine

agraham

Shohin
Messages
276
Reaction score
51
Location
South Texas
USDA Zone
9
Will,

There is a difference between "pro" and "semi pro" even in sports.Personally,I think anyone who gives advanced advice(or demos) should be able to back it up whether paid or not, even if not on the same level as one who makes a living at bonsai.

I'm not quibbling with the rules,just pointing out that your statement is silly.Basically you are saying that one who has at one time been reimbursed for travel and/or demo material and has given a basic beginner lecture or demo should be able to compete with the likes of Walter Pall?

And as far as "bonsai related business" goes....should that extend to anyone who has ever sold a tree or pot or tool or traded for value be included?How in the world does being a vendor of bonsai related products equate with being a professional artist?


andy
 
Messages
2,774
Reaction score
31
Location
Michigan, USA
USDA Zone
5
Will,

There is a difference between "pro" and "semi pro" even in sports.Personally,I think anyone who gives advanced advice(or demos) should be able to back it up whether paid or not, even if not on the same level as one who makes a living at bonsai.

I'm not quibbling with the rules,just pointing out that your statement is silly.Basically you are saying that one who has at one time been reimbursed for travel and/or demo material and has given a basic beginner lecture or demo should be able to compete with the likes of Walter Pall?

And as far as "bonsai related business" goes....should that extend to anyone who has ever sold a tree or pot or tool or traded for value be included?How in the world does being a vendor of bonsai related products equate with being a professional artist?


andy

No one said a thing about being reimbursed except you. I said and the rules state, "if you have ever been paid."

Call it silly, but my statement still stands. If you are taking people's money, then you are acting as a professional and should enter as such. I said that if someone is charging for teaching, they should be able to show results that are comparable to other teachers, this is just good old fashioned common sense.

Will
 

Smoke

Ignore-Amus
Messages
11,668
Reaction score
20,724
Location
Fresno, CA
USDA Zone
9
I said that if someone is charging for teaching, they should be able to show results that are comparable to other teachers, this is just good old fashioned common sense.

Will


Holy Smokes!
 

agraham

Shohin
Messages
276
Reaction score
51
Location
South Texas
USDA Zone
9
Will,

Reimbursement was probably a poor choice of words.But it is a form of payment.Would calling the payment a fee as opposed to a reimbursement be the dividing line between pro and amateur?

And let us abandon the metaphor of professional sports figures for pro bonsaists ,and sporting goods store owners for those who sell prebonsai and related supplies.You obviously didn't think those out very well.Or perhaps you did and chose to ignore the obvious different levels of professionalism and the VERY obvious difference between selling something and creating something.

I also noticed that you left out the authors of bonsai related articles in your professional category.This is a form of teaching,no?Should we expect the same degree of styling skill from those who have been paid for articles but have never been paid for a class,demo or workshop?

Let's get to your point on demos and teaching.

You have awfully high expectations of people.:DBut,you made me rethink my position. After reading your response,I considered talking to the local schoolboard and demanding that they test all of the middle school math teachers in quantum physics.If they fail the test..they should be fired.After all,we are paying them to teach mathmatics.They should be as skilled and knowledgable as the college professors.We should expect nothing less!:D ....ah,but then we'd have to get all of the college professors to instruct 8th graders for a living.The pay wouldn't be the same and they'd probably have a difficult time with boredom.I'm not sure that there are enough of them either.If they spent all their time teaching middle school math....who would teach quantum physics?

Damn!What a quandary.Perhaps there is a place for middle school teachers who don't have a background in quantum physics afterall.But it just doesn't seem right.The damn losers.:confused:

Again,just to be clear,I have no objections to the contest rules.I am sure that there are many less talented or experienced bonsai artists that would jump at the chance to compete against the very best.It is all in good fun and should be very educational for all.But.....

I would expect nothing less from you than for you to stand by your rediculous statement that anyone who has been paid to teach bonsai(even at a beginner level) should be held to the same standards as Bill V. or Walter P. or Steve T.or Marco I.....or any of the other true masters of the art.It stands right up there with the one about people for whom bonsai is a hobby are failures.

andy
 
Last edited:

Vance Wood

Lord Mugo
Messages
14,002
Reaction score
16,911
Location
Michigan
USDA Zone
5-6
Isn't there a saying that goes "those who can't, teach"...;)

It is also followed by the phrase that those that can do. But the fact remains that there are those who can do neither and there are those that can do both. Kimura teaches, Walter Pall teaches, Bill Valvanis teaches, Mark Invernizie(sp?) teaches the list is long of great artists that teach. In fact a great artist is expected to teach.
 

bonsai barry

Omono
Messages
1,374
Reaction score
58
Location
Cental Coast of California
USDA Zone
9
I wonder if the "sort-of pro" versus the "real pro" argument could be settled next time (if the contest can survive the bickering) by adding an additional cateorgy of "Master"?

If the contest were to become a prestigious event, winning the Master cateogry would be some mighty fine bragging rights.
 
Messages
1,773
Reaction score
15
Location
Ottawa, KS
USDA Zone
6
Will, I suppose you have already entered your tree or trees in the AoB contest. Are you considering entering the KoB?
 

agraham

Shohin
Messages
276
Reaction score
51
Location
South Texas
USDA Zone
9
Barry,

I imagine that the strict interpretaion of "professional" has disuaded some from entering.Ofcourse, it may have inspired some also.Atleast the contest has some differentiation between skill levels.It's a good start.The line has to be drawn somewhere and no matter where it is drawn there will be those who feel that they are forced into the wrong category...se la vie:)

p.s...I think the contest will survive just fine.

andy
 
Last edited:
Messages
1,773
Reaction score
15
Location
Ottawa, KS
USDA Zone
6
It is also followed by the phrase that those that can do. But the fact remains that there are those who can do neither and there are those that can do both. Kimura teaches, Walter Pall teaches, Bill Valvanis teaches, Mark Invernizie(sp?) teaches the list is long of great artists that teach. In fact a great artist is expected to teach.

The actual phrase is, "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach."

A corollary to the thought might be, "Those who can do neither, become critics."
 

milehigh_7

Mister 500,000
Messages
4,920
Reaction score
6,096
Location
Somewhere South of Phoenix
USDA Zone
Hot
Vision and talent, without them you can be given all the quality stock in the world and you'll still only have a yard full of potted trees, with them you'll make the stock much more than the sum of its parts.


Will

LOL which makes it a very good thing that I like potted trees! :D You all crack me up!

In all seriousness, reading the whole thread it seems that if a person does not feel up to entering a competition, simply don't. Furthermore, if a person is not making a given situation better, it seems logical to stay out of the way. Let's all applaud those who have been gifted, watch and learn what we can.

It seems sad to try to poison the well because our rope is not long enough to reach the water...
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom