Want to know collected common juniper tips and tricks

[Abhishek Dasgupta]

Hi,

Am curious how people in US handle yamadori/collected common juniper apart from the normal repotting in pumice and letting them go for 3 years before any styling done ? I have read reports of how miserably they fail in a span of 2-3 years from collection and curious if people have successfully cracked the code .

Few weird anecdotes I have read :-

1. Ryan speaks of common juniper hating akadama soil without deeper explanation as to why - Is it because akadama breaks down in 2-3 years and that is not what a common juniper can get accustomed to and thus starts dying ?
2. Not using organic fertilizer but relying on chemical ones - https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/common-juniper-j-communis.19218/#post-262121

Am just curious from all people who have managed to keep common juniper beyond 5+ years from yamadori/collecting - how did you do it ?

Regards,
Abhishek

 

[Crazy Diamond]

I think they are just difficult, very slow to restablish after big roots are pruned, people have more succes with nursery ones but yamadori just few make it

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I have a couple communis junipers and the key to collecting them seems to be to dig early.
Dig them when there is no growth at all, just after winter. Normally we repot junipers in late spring. But communis, although common, is no normal juniper.
It seems that they grow roots once a year, in spring all the way through summer and that's it. So if you're late, or cut something off, they die.

I've done a test this year by repotting one after the first frost. So we'll see in spring if there is a second window of opportunity.

They hate akadama probably because they are sand and rock loving, and akadama is too wet and contains too much of one metal that releases when communis pushes out low pH exudates from the roots that it normally uses to get minerals from sand and rock.
I've been studying communis for some time and it looks like they have just a hand full of fruiting mushrooms in their mycorrhizal network, it could be that akadama is toxic to those specific fungi.

Mine are in a mixture of pumice, lava rock and crushed something rocky, with a small addition of builder sand. This mix stays fairly wet too, but for some reason it's not a problem. So I'm thinking the problem with akadama is the metal composition that Ryan Neil also talked about.

 

[Abhishek Dasgupta]

I have a couple communis junipers and the key to collecting them seems to be to dig early.
Dig them when there is no growth at all, just after winter. Normally we repot junipers in late spring. But communis, although common, is no normal juniper.
It seems that they grow roots once a year, in spring all the way through summer and that's it. So if you're late, or cut something off, they die.

I've done a test this year by repotting one after the first frost. So we'll see in spring if there is a second window of opportunity.

They hate akadama probably because they are sand and rock loving, and akadama is too wet and contains too much of one metal that releases when communis pushes out low pH exudates from the roots that it normally uses to get minerals from sand and rock.
I've been studying communis for some time and it looks like they have just a hand full of fruiting mushrooms in their mycorrhizal network, it could be that akadama is toxic to those specific fungi.

Mine are in a mixture of pumice, lava rock and crushed something rocky, with a small addition of builder sand. This mix stays fairly wet too, but for some reason it's not a problem. So I'm thinking the problem with akadama is the metal composition that Ryan Neil also talked about.

This is such a great explanation- much better than Ryan did . Thank you !

So I have a mixture in mind with almost 40% pumice and 40% black lava , 10% large particle sand , 5% charcoal and 5% pine bark fines .

How long since you have had the common junipers and how often have you reported them ? I feel like they really hate any kind of root work done on them .

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I have one that has been in my collection for 4 years now, it was repotted once. Another I just repotted, but that one is a small foliage cultivar.
And I killed two more in those 4 years. They are truly a difficult species to work with, so I try not to repot them at all and I take weeks to apply wire and bend branches. These junipers don't bend, they break. One push or twist too far, and it's over.

I would go with 5% large particle sand. Just to make sure that there's enough air penetration in the soil. I just covered the top layer.

If this is your first yamadori trip, keep in mind that you can look at a 1000 trees and you'll probably find 1 or 2 that you'll be able to dig. And that's what it is. It's perfectly OK to give up and leave it (just put the soil back please). Take a good look at the root system, avoid sandy soil locations because the fine feeder roots WILL be a couple foot below the soil in sand. Forest soil up to a foot deep or rock pockets, otherwise you're just wasting time and effort on something that will die.

 

[Abhishek Dasgupta]

I have one that has been in my collection for 4 years now, it was repotted once. Another I just repotted, but that one is a small foliage cultivar.
And I killed two more in those 4 years. They are truly a difficult species to work with, so I try not to repot them at all and I take weeks to apply wire and bend branches. These junipers don't bend, they break. One push or twist too far, and it's over.

I would go with 5% large particle sand. Just to make sure that there's enough air penetration in the soil. I just covered the top layer.

If this is your first yamadori trip, keep in mind that you can look at a 1000 trees and you'll probably find 1 or 2 that you'll be able to dig. And that's what it is. It's perfectly OK to give up and leave it (just put the soil back please). Take a good look at the root system, avoid sandy soil locations because the fine feeder roots WILL be a couple foot below the soil in sand. Forest soil up to a foot deep or rock pockets, otherwise you're just wasting time and effort on something that will die.

That is precisely what I have done in the past . I have been to 2 yamadori trips but didnt collect anything in the last 2 years. Simply studied the location, put a marker which am not sure will be available this year when I go in spring . So yes I do plan to collect some this spring if I can find my way back to the spots I have marked .

How do you approach fertilization after collection and then for the first, second , third year for common juniper ?

 

[Velodog2]

I have a yamadori from Andy Smith at least ten years in my care now still growing like a weed. I prune it way back at least once a year and let it get shaggy again. Haven't had any problems bending it either and found it quite flexible. I use organic fertilizer balls mostly but also chemical fertilizers, and keep it quite moist in soil with a lot of organic material and crushed granite that Andy uses. Some years roots grow out of the drainage hole.

The catch is that I’ve never transplanted it because I can find no consensus on how to do it successfully and many accounts of it being done unsuccessfully. So I kind of view it as a temporary tree I’m reluctant to get attached to as I figure it won’t survive indefinitely like this. Maybe unfortunately it’s actually a very nice little tree with a fantastic trunk line and deadwood.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I approach fertilization from a scientific perspective: plants in recovery need building blocks to build. Carbon is cool, but it's just calories.. Without proteins and enzymes, for which plants need nitrogen and potassium, sulfur and magnesium, there's not much to build with.

So half or a quarter of the regular dose from day one and after 6 months they get full doses.

 

[Abhishek Dasgupta]

I have a yamadori from Andy Smith at least ten years in my care now still growing like a weed. I prune it way back at least once a year and let it get shaggy again. Haven't had any problems bending it either and found it quite flexible. I use organic fertilizer balls mostly but also chemical fertilizers, and keep it quite moist in soil with a lot of organic material and crushed granite that Andy uses. Some years roots grow out of the drainage hole.

The catch is that I’ve never transplanted it because I can find no consensus on how to do it successfully and many accounts of it being done unsuccessfully. So I kind of view it as a temporary tree I’m reluctant to get attached to as I figure it won’t survive indefinitely like this. Maybe unfortunately it’s actually a very nice little tree with a fantastic trunk line and deadwood.

This is fascinating that you havent repotted in 10 years . So I guess it came in potted from Andy and has never been repotted ? He does have a couple of common junipers listed on his website that I wanna try ... There's something magical in the way Andy collects his trees

 

[Velodog2]

This is fascinating that you havent repotted in 10 years . So I guess it came in potted from Andy and has never been repotted ? He does have a couple of common junipers listed on his website that I wanna try ... There's something magical in the way Andy collects his trees

Yes that’s right. Never touched the roots. Don’t know how much longer it will thrive. Should check his website for repotting advice probably.

 

[Abhishek Dasgupta]

Yes that’s right. Never touched the roots. Don’t know how much longer it will thrive. Should check his website for repotting advice probably.

Wow ! That looks pretty amazing ! Does it have natural shari on it ? Am very interested to know what you decide in spring and if you actually repot

 

[Velodog2]

Yes it has very nice shari on the left hand trunk which is really the only one worth keeping. If it continues to do well I’ll eventually get rid of the other one.

But back on topic, this is what Andy says about repotting them. Although simple I’m not sure how helpful as he seems to treat them like any other juniper more or less. Maybe I will too, but conservatively. Someday.

 

[MaciekA]

Ryan hasn't gone into detail about what is special about communis because from the Mirai viewpoint, there are no special species-specific notes to make about communis in particular other than "it is a needle juniper which moves water very slowly". In light of that, the Mirai model already has an answer on how to treat communis: Like a conifer that moves water very slowly and leans more into the "oxygen" part of "balance of water and oxygen".

Pot it in a mesh-bottomed box of pumice, sized not much larger than current root volume, placed directly on the ground in dappled sun out of wind and don't physically touch it or fertilize it at all until it's a lime-tipped vigorous bush with running and explosive growth. Root growth in the shoulder seasons buys you survival + expansion of foliage through hot months. Follow that plan and you don't have to pretend that 36 months has some special meaning to a common juniper. Feedback from the canopy and signs that water cycles quickly are a more reliable indicator.

IMO fertilizer, charcoal, and pine fines are not a success factor in any shape or form. You can think about that stuff after you have functioning roots.

 

[Abhishek Dasgupta]

Ryan hasn't gone into detail about what is special about communis because from the Mirai viewpoint, there are no special species-specific notes to make about communis in particular other than "it is a needle juniper which moves water very slowly". In light of that, the Mirai model already has an answer on how to treat communis: Like a conifer that moves water very slowly and leans more into the "oxygen" part of "balance of water and oxygen".

Pot it in a mesh-bottomed box of pumice, sized not much larger than current root volume, placed directly on the ground in dappled sun out of wind and don't physically touch it or fertilize it at all until it's a lime-tipped vigorous bush with running and explosive growth. Root growth in the shoulder seasons buys you survival + expansion of foliage through hot months. Follow that plan and you don't have to pretend that 36 months has some special meaning to a common juniper. Feedback from the canopy and signs that water cycles quickly are a more reliable indicator.

IMO fertilizer, charcoal, and pine fines are not a success factor in any shape or form. You can think about that stuff after you have functioning roots.

Thank you for the reply and very helpful one .

My comment about Ryan not going deeper was not for communis as a species or how to handle it but for the fact that he stated that common juniper hates akadama without deeper answer as to why

 

[MaciekA]

Thank you for the reply and very helpful one .

My comment about Ryan not going deeper was not for communis as a species or how to handle it but for the fact that he stated that common juniper hates akadama without deeper answer as to why

Apologies, I see what you were saying now.

I think this question also fits into Ryan's model for conifers (i.e. that in a "balance of water and oxygen" world view, conifers prefer more oxygen in the roots and are more easily overwhelmed with excess moisture in the roots). Ryan often states that akadama holds quite a bit more water than other volcanic particles at a similar grain size. I'd say most growers would agree with with this when comparing akadama to pumice, lava and perlite.

Ryan Neil, but also tree scientists / professors / tree physiology textbooks often state that leaf characteristics are some of the primary factors that determine water consumption rate in a given tree species. Even within conifers, there is a spectrum of leaf characteristics (sun-exposed surface area, shape, thickness, cuticle layer thickness, stomata distribution and character, variegation, and other attributes). Even within various subgroups of conifers, whether pines or junipers, there is a spectrum of water consumption behavior driven by needle characteristic. For example japanese black pine gulps water down much quicker than white pine or ponderosa or bristlecone. The needle characteristics of these pines align with their water behavior and also the ecological niche of the species in question (coastal/valley + rainy versus interior landmass/mountainous + more arid).

So the deeper more complete answer would be that needle-foliaged junipers (communis, rigida, procumbens), when it comes to water draw, behave more like pines than the average juniper (whose leaf surface area is larger and consumes water relatively quicker), because their needles have lower surface area than other junipers, meaning rate of photosynthesis is lower (all other things equal), which means lower rates of water draw -- these are junipers evolved for more challenging ecological niches (similar to pines). Since the consensus is that high water capacity in the soil is not helpful (or actively harmful) when a species (due to leaf characteristics) cannot draw water quickly, you can conclude that akadama might not be a great choice (especially when a tree is still sparse in leaf density per unit volume).

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Needle junipers evaporate more water because their foliage has wayyy more surface area.
My communis are wet all year around and they don't seem to mind. They grow in the UK with high amounts of rain every year.

As for the rate of photosynthesis, we see procumbens take the cake and this is due to high surface area of the needles. They grow like crazy, wherever. So I don't think the whole needle/water draw part holds any ground.

 

[GGB]

Peter adams has a book about juniperus communis, well 1/3 of the book is about them. I wonder if it mentions anything useful. He had some nice ones

 

[OTown]

I would argue that Tom Vuong (SoCal) has cracked the code on juniper yamadory collecting. This video shows his large backyard operation and explains some of his techniques. Spoiler alert...pumice, misting, keep the soil covered and relatively dry (skip to 11:31).

 

[Crazy Diamond]

I would argue that Tom Vuong (SoCal) has cracked the code on juniper yamadory collecting. This video shows his large backyard operation and explains some of his techniques. Spoiler alert...pumice, misting, keep the soil covered and relatively dry (skip to 11:31).

Holy smokes, he has some freaking monster juniper yamadoris

 

[leatherback]

he has some freaking monster juniper yamadoris

Yeah, in a way sad that those trees are dug up to sit in a pot after being there for hundreds if not thousands of years.
Not sure whether I liked that opening shot.