Wanted: Acer Palmatum ‘Seigen’

GGB

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Damn, good for you. I'm guilty of believing everything I read. not a good a trait obviously. Hopefully they stay strong in the long term
 

leatherback

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Anyone have a verified ‘Seigen’ root cutting they’d be willing to sell or trade for some similar-sized Itoigawa or Satsuki Azalea ‘Kinsai’ cuttings? Seigen has been on my list since BT #47 arrived in my mailbox in around 1996. ?. Thanks...
Just for those in the EU: Deshima bonsai received a bunch of nice Seigens from Japan recently. Last weekend a friend of mine drove down and bought one. I understand they are selling quickly. Contact them directly, I doubt they are in their online store.
 

Ohmy222

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Mother trees in the ground with 3 layers and 11 cuttings. All cuttings are recently rooted this year. Two layers are from last year. As you can see my layers are almost always clumps or multi-trunks. I’m a sucker for them.
 

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BonsaiDTLA

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He's wrong. His book is awesome for techniques, photos, and bonsai knowledge but the general maple information has gaps. I will try to get a picture tomorrow but out of the Seigen above I have 3 air layers and probably 8-10 cuttings or so. In fact, I have probably 40-50 cultivars of maple and it the quickest to layer and close to the easiest maple to root. I believe he also says Shishigashira's cant be layered too and i have done two of them as well. Clearly I can't tell you the long term growth rate of them on their own roots but have not noticed a difference. The tree is now in the ground like Brian's.


I've noticed some discrepancies in his book as well, but the vendor I got my Seigen from also stated the same about needing to graft Seigen for success. This is the first time I've read of someone successfully getting them to root on their own roots. Congrats and hope they work out great moving forward.
 

Canada Bonsai

Shohin
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Andrea meriggioli says seigen have to be grafted, usually to their own seedlings because their own roots won't support them. I am interested to see if this is bad info. I have never seen any from cuttings, of course.... I have only seen a few in general. good luck, very cool variety

He's wrong. His book is awesome for techniques, photos, and bonsai knowledge but the general maple information has gaps. I will try to get a picture tomorrow but out of the Seigen above I have 3 air layers and probably 8-10 cuttings or so. In fact, I have probably 40-50 cultivars of maple and it the quickest to layer and close to the easiest maple to root. I believe he also says Shishigashira's cant be layered too and i have done two of them as well. Clearly I can't tell you the long term growth rate of them on their own roots but have not noticed a difference. The tree is now in the ground like Brian's.

Sometimes, when a text is translated from a foreign language into English, and when the translator himself is very obviously not a native English speaker, it is important to be a patient, understanding, and sympathetic reader.

Seigen

On page 86 he says that Seigen "can be propagated by grafting or air layering, but not through cuttings". He adds "in most cases it is actually propagated by grafting onto rootstock from seed"

Anybody who has tried to propagate Seigen or Deshojo from cuttings knows how difficult it can be. Whereas you can expect a +90% success rate for Acer Palmatum 'Arakawa', 'Kashima', 'Katsura', "Kiyo Hime', 'Koto Hime', etc. the success rate for Seigen and Deshojo is truly much lower. So when one reads “can be propagated by grafting or air layering, but not through cuttings", we know that he likely means:

"can [easily] be propagated propagated by grafting or air layering, but not through cuttings" (i.e. not as easily through cuttings)
or
"[is often] propagated by grafting or air layering, but not through cuttings" (i.e. cuttings are not the most common method)

or something along those lines....

As it happens, i’ve spoken to Andrea about Seigen and that’s exactly what he meant: Seigen can be propagated via cutting, but it isn’t standard practice

I have also spoken to propagators and growers in Japan, and the standard practice for propagating Seigen and Deshojo is via air layer or grafting--of course, they are not grafting with ugly scion grafts like our North American landscape growers allow themselves to do.

Shishi Gashira
on page 88 (see attached) he says that Shishi Gashira "can be propagated by grafting on rootstock, or by air layering. It is not possible to air layer it".

I have spoken to Andrea, and the second part of this quote is an obvious typo. The second sentence was supposed to say that it cannot (i.e. is extremely difficult) be propagated via cuttings
 

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Ohmy222

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Here is an update on this Seigen, it has grown to around 48” tall now, with the trunk around thumb-thick. I plan to let it keep growing, and propagate it with air-layers to start with decent-sized trunks.
View attachment 332579

Nice! Mine is a smaller as I started propagating asap. Pretty vigorous growth.
 

ibakey

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How’s your Seigen coming along Brian? Did it grow a ton over Covid?
 

Brian Van Fleet

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How’s your Seigen coming along Brian? Did it grow a ton over Covid?
Yes, it is around 5’ tall and wide. It’s in a place that is difficult to photograph, but it is growing well. I may attempt some air-layers next spring.
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james

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Brian, looks like you are on your way with Seigen! Could you tell me your thoughts regarding Seigen v Deshosho? I’ve propagated Deshosho, and love the leaves in spring. By summer, much like any other Japanese maple. Your thoughts?
 

Brian Van Fleet

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Brian, looks like you are on your way with Seigen! Could you tell me your thoughts regarding Seigen v Deshosho? I’ve propagated Deshosho, and love the leaves in spring. By summer, much like any other Japanese maple. Your thoughts?
Haven’t grown any Deshojo. The Seigen goes light green in the summer and new growth has been a decent red, but my Chishio holds the red color longer into the spring, and new growth seems brighter. I’ll have to make a side-by-side shot now that my Chishio is starting to throw a few summer shoots. The leaf shape and size is very good on the Seigen, and it seems like the foliage and internodes can be reduced in size. It will be interesting to see how long it takes for the green bark to mature. Something tells me that’s going to take a while.
 

ibakey

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Yes, it is around 5’ tall and wide. It’s in a place that is difficult to photograph, but it is growing well. I may attempt some air-layers next spring.
View attachment 444347View attachment 444346View attachment 444345
Wow, it has grown significantly in a relatively short time. I just acquired a small Seigen just like what you had before and was wondering how vigorous the cultivar Seigen was. Thanks for sharing your pics. Indeed, I prefer the lighter green leaves if the Seigen during the summer compared to the darker ones of the deshojo.
 

Driftwood

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Yes, it is around 5’ tall and wide. It’s in a place that is difficult to photograph, but it is growing well. I may attempt some air-layers next spring.
View attachment 444347View attachment 444346View attachment 444345


Hi, have you tried cuttings? I just failed to root three cuttings taken three weeks ago, I was late this year and it was very warm but anyway I can already tell is more difficult than standard mountain maple.
 

Brian Van Fleet

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Hi, have you tried cuttings? I just failed to root three cuttings taken three weeks ago, I was late this year and it was very warm but anyway I can already tell is more difficult than standard mountain maple.
Not yet. I’ll likely try an air-layer next spring to test the waters.
 
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