was struggling how to word this

[dick benbow]

But i became aware of recently of a bonsai collection being offered up for sale. The owner has had these trees himself for 50 years and he got them from his father who had them for that amount of time as well. Tho I've drifted away from japanese species in favor of indigenous, the thought of all his documentation for prominance, makes this opportunity very attractive.

How important is it to be able to say how long a tree has been a bonsai, and to be able to say that it came thru what dealer and when and that it's origins were in Japan? I find that terribly
attractive. If i luck out and get one, I'll post. I should know wednesday...

how much importance does this kind of info register with you?

 

[Smoke]

To me personally, provenence is jusy icing on the cake. First and formost it has to be a bonsai and artistic, healthy and award winning.

Crappy, unartistic and nearly dead with povenence is just that.

Now if it were crappy, unartistic and nearly dead and "my Dad's" that would be different.

4000 posts, imagine that.....

 

[dick benbow]

I get cha....

 

[JudyB]

Happy 4000nth smoke! And many more...

I agree, backstory is great, but great tree materiel is most important.

 

[milehigh_7]

...

4000 posts, imagine that.....

Happy 4000th and here is to 4000 more!

 

[Kevster]

Good lord!! 4000 post! How long have you been watching the number? It's like almost turning 100,000 miles on a vehicle. You don't want to miss it you you're constantly watching.
I missed my 100k but saw it turn 200k.

 

[milehigh_7]

Back to the subject, I am with Al, all things being equal the back story really makes it for me but the trees have to be in good shape. Kinda like on Pawn Stars when someone brings in an item, if it is in good shape they are interested if it is in good shape and has a story all the better.

 

[Attila Soos]

One of the most exciting prospects in bonsai for me, is to find treasure amongst trash. So, the ideal situation would be to find a tree with a long-standing pedigree, that is in a very bad shape, both health-wise and stylistically. Sort of like finding a major fixer-upper, in an exellent location.

This would mean that I could buy the bonsai in question at a deep discount - since nobody could ask full price for such a tree. A potential master-piece in top condition would command a price that would be unreacheable for most of us. But a half-dead and disheveled candidate would be a fun project for little money.

The other day I was at Jim Barrett, picking up some pots that he custom-made for me. In his backyard, I was looking for a couple of my favorite trees, including some magnificent pomegranates that Jim used to exhibit. They were gone.
Jim told me that he recently sold two pomegranates to a collector. Without mentioning the exact price on this forum, I'll just say that both trees were close to the 5 figure-range. Jim said that there were higher bidders as well, but he was worried about their abilities to keep them alive and healthy. So he ended up selling them at a discount to someone who he had confidence in.

He grew those trees for the past half century.

In the past, I was contemplating to make him an offer for one of those trees. But after knowing the price he sold them for, I felt no regret for failing to make an offer.

 

[rockm]

"how much importance does this kind of info register with you?"

Depends on a few things. Sometimes a 100 year old piece of junk is a 100 year old piece of junk. If, however, it belonged to a "name," all bets are off. There was a collection around here from a prominent local bonsaiist that was-- IMO-- mostly junk, or, at best extremely "unconventional." However, it got auctioned off and drew a lot of buyers, because (I guess) people just wanted a bonsai that belonged to the person...The trees didn't bring in a mountain of cash, but they still sold pretty well.

 

[Attila Soos]

Sometimes a 100 year old piece of junk is a 100 year old piece of junk.

A 100 year-old tree in a bonsai pot is rarely junk. It may be far from finished. It may have very bad design. But when a tree lives 100 years in a pot, it is almost impossible not to have some excellent character due to age. Using imagination, there is always a way to bring that priceless character into some kind of design.

As long as the junk in question is in the 100 year age cathegory, I will be happy to give a home for those trees, for a price that would make both of us happy.

 

[rockm]

"A 100 year-old tree in a bonsai pot is rarely junk. It may be far from finished. It may have very bad design. But when a tree lives 100 years in a pot, it is almost impossible not to have some excellent character due to age. Using imagination, there is always a way to bring that priceless character into some kind of design."

Sure it can be junk. Old doesn't necessarily mean good or even mediocre. "Priceless" character? or just plain "quirky" or "mostly unnusable?"

 

[Attila Soos]

Sure it can be junk. Old doesn't necessarily mean good or even mediocre. "Priceless" character? or just plain "quirky" or "mostly unnusable?"

As I said, I'll be more than happy to buy any 100 year-old tree in a pot, that people believe to be unusable. I would be thrilled to see those examples. Reverse taper, bad roots, lack of low branches? With carving, grafting, and use of rocks, a tree can be overhauled beyond recognition most of the times. At times, it can be a great piece of a group planting, when unfit for individual display.The question is, is it worth the time and effort? If the tree is old enough, that makes the effort more likely to be worthwhile.

 

[Smoke]

Don't you just wish the word "subjectivity" didn't exist?

 

[Ang3lfir3]

Don't you just wish the word "subjectivity" didn't exist?

NO ...... because then no one would have anything to disagree about on the internet ..... and then art would be pointless ....

subjectivity is part of the charm and joy in life ..... accept that other people see things different than you and you can then learn to embrace and enjoy that.... and you get stuff to argue with people about!!!! fun fun FUN!!!


of course that is just my opinion in all its subjectiveness

 

[Ang3lfir3]

For the record .... none of the trees is really horrible (only one....a collected juniper... has reverse taper) .... they are all pretty mediocre (and their appraised values reflect that) ..... some of them could easily be shown in 3-5 years with some work .....

they all need repotting and new soil ....

@Dick, just think of the provenance as that extra bit that makes the particular tree that strikes your fancy even that much more enjoyable ... as for $$ valuation ... provenance was not considered in valuating them

 

[tmmason10]

5-digits? Wow, I got a long ways to go.

For me I'm with Attila on all of his posts. I'd love any 100 year old tree to work on because time is one thing that no skill can really substitute for. To an extent. I guess it might be cool to have a tree that used to belong to someone, but man I'd rather it was a sweet piece that was made by me.

 

[rock]

5-digits?

 

[Ang3lfir3]

5-digits? Wow, I got a long ways to go.

4 digits i presume you mean.... and I assume you were talking about Al's "post count" ..... the trees in question are all in the 3 digit range or less

the trees Dick is talking about were evaluated and appraised by Vic and myself ....

 

[tmmason10]

4 digits i presume you mean.... and I assume you were talking about Al's "post count" ..... the trees in question are all in the 3 digit range or less

the trees Dick is talking about were evaluated and appraised by Vic and myself ....

Attila was talking about a 5-figure tree, that's what I was referring to. I guess I'm too shocked that such trees would exist but I just can't imagine. The three figures are much more manageable.

 

[tmmason10]

View attachment 25857View attachment 25858

Well, clearly, they are near perfect trees. Thanks for sharing that.