Water pH right around 8

Toraidento

Shohin
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So just tested my water with a pH meter. It's 8.03, 8.09, and 8.15. my. My trees started to weaken and have issues last year after moving. I thought I was over watering. But now I'm thinking it's the pH of my water. How bad is is a pH level of 8 on my trees.
 

Toraidento

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Btw I have a mix of trees.a few JM, Tridents, Chinese Elms, Zelkova, Junipers (kishu, itigowa) JBP and a few Satsuki azaleas.
 

cmeg1

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If in dirt it is high.
If in stones(hydro) you want between 5.5-6.5 .
All metal literally become locked out outside or below.
Ph very important.I took a master grower course this year.And it really pays off.

EC meter is good too.
Check all these articles by HarleySmith.I learned from him.I got crazy awesome Pine trees and deciduous results by applying his instruction and is my first attempt.

 

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cmeg1

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Up and down
 

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Toraidento

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Yeah I found that it was high using the little strips that come with BonsaiJack's lava rock and pumice. I thought it was between 7 and 8 so I ordered this pH meter. Got it this morning and it shows just above 8. But I'm growing out in the yard in nursery containers, clay pots, and colanders
 

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PABonsai

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If they get exposed to regular rain it may not be an issue. I would test the soil periodically rather than just the water.
 

Mellow Mullet

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I would not worry about it, my pH is around 8.4 and I have been watering with it for years and have never had any problems. Do you have buffer solutions to verify the accuracy of your meter and to calibrate it?
 

cmeg1

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If there is anything soil like in your mix it will have a buffering effect on ph and is actually tough to change.Good soil/good ph.
Hydro on the other hand,the water is the soil.
 

PABonsai

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If there is anything soil like in your mix it will have a buffering effect on ph and is actually tough to change.Good soil/good ph.
Hydro on the other hand,the water is the soil.
Yeah if he has something organic though it'll help acidify the area where the roots are actually at. Which is why I suggest testing the soil they're in. Plus any fertilizer will add acidity. So his tree might not be in an 8.0 environment, and even less likely if it gets regular washing with rain water. He said they're in his yard so I assume they get rain.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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First, relax, there are many beautiful gardens in Savannah Georgia, they are not full of dead and dying plants. JBP, Chinese elms, and junipers are not very sensitive to pH at all, so if you are having pH problems the Satsuki Azalea, and Japanese maples should have shown much more serious symptoms long before the JBP and junipers would show any symptoms. Seriously I would be looking for a different source of your problems because where pH is concerned, not all plants are equal, you should have had strong response from azalea, and no response from elm, JBP and juniper. Something else is going on.

One fact that comes into play is, all plants are capable of buffering the water film around their roots into the proper pH range to absorb nutrients. For example, Paph orchids growing on bare limestone rock in Java, the rain water running off the adjacent rock had a pH around 7.5, the water film surrounding the root of the plant attached to the rock had a pH of about 5.8 The result of the test was proof the plant was actively secreting buffers to modify the environment around the root zone, the film of water around the roots, into the ideal pH range.. The plants can modify their environments.

The above means pH alone is not a useful measurement. You need to dig further into your water chemistry to make sense of pH. All municipal water is buffered to pH 7.8 to 8.5 as required by law. This is to avoid leaching lead into the water system, poisoning us in the exact same way Flint Michigan poisoned its residents.

The measurement that is of value is the TOTAL ALKALINITY of your water. This is the measurement of the buffer capacity of your water. Total Alkalinity is expressed as milligrams of calcium carbonate per liter of water. mg/l. It is a measurement of ionic salts dissolved in the water. For anyone getting their water from the Great Lakes, most surface rivers or reservoirs, and wells in granite based bedrock, total alkalinity is low to moderate, meaning no matter the pH of the water, plants need to excrete very little to buffer the film of water surrounding their roots into the ideal range to absorb nutrients. People who get their water from wells, where the ground water is coming from limestone bedrock layers are the main group of people dealing with high total alkalinity water. For them, the total alkalinity will be a problem. It is possible to overwhelm a plant's ability to buffer its environment. This is why alkali salt flats have a unique and limited list of plant species that thrive there.

Total alkalinity is often reported in the annual water report most municipalities issue every year. It is a relatively simple test to run in a chem lab, the technique has not changed since the early 19th century. For about $40 an independent soil testing or water testing lab can run it on your water.

For 95% of North America, the water chemistry is pretty similar, and TOTAL DISSOLVED SOLIDS, TDS, can be used to approximate Total Alkalinity. It is not an exact relationship, and there are moderately rare circumstances where TDS has no relationship to Total Alkalinity, but that is rare, not the norm. Municipal water reports if they do not report total alkalinity will report Total Dissolved Solids, usually as ppm, but the value is pretty much interchangeable with milligrams per liter, so 225 ppm TDS is the same as 225 mg/l TDS. TDS can be determined quite simply by weighing out a sample of water into a clean, dry glass beaker, placing the beaker in a 105 C oven for 17 hours, and wight the beaker afterwards. The amount of weight the beaker gained over the starting weight of the empty glass beaker is the weight of the dissolved solids in the water. Divided by the weight of the water added and you get the % solids, a little flip with the calculator and it can be expressed in parts per million.

Water for irrigation, with less than 400 ppm total dissolved solids, or less than 350 mg/liter as calcium carbonate Total Alkalinity, can be used without adjustment for most trees and shrubs that are not sensitive to pH. It is just fine for Junipers, JBP, Elms and the majority of the landscape industries inventory of species.

Azalea & Japanese maples to prefer softer water, lower TDS and lower Total Alkalinity. Water less than 150 ppm total dissolved solids or less than 100 mg/liter total alkalinity will be perfect without adjustment.

If you have hard water, you can get away with using it if you alternate watering with rain water. If you can collect enough rain water, that you can water at least once a week with rain water you can get away with using fairly hard water with high alkalinity as your irrigation water between rain events or watering with rain water.

So find out more about your water. Find out your total alkalinity, or if you can not, but can get your Total Dissolved Solids, usually Total Alkalinity is around 75% to 85% of TDS.

The danger of adjusting pH, is you will add too much buffer, one way or the other, and increase the buffer capacity of the water to a level beyond the plant's native ability to adjust pH around its roots into its preferred ideal range.

I've written a number of posts on pH, generally with the summary that pH is trivial. Please use the BNut search engine and find the rest I've written on the topic.

The end result is plants are capable of adjusting the root environment into their own preferred ideal pH range, it is important to not over think what the plants do naturally for themselves and end up adjusting conditions outside of their capabilities to cope with our fiddling about.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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You can design your potting mix to assist or compensate for high total alkalinity of your water. For example. If you have very soft water, like our Canadian friends living on the Laurentian Shield, they have soft water, low total alkalinity, usually less than 50 mg/liter. They can grow azaleas in just about any potting mix. Even Turface would work well. The reason is the water has very little calcium carbonate. It doesn't matter whether the mix has some or not.

In my area, my Lake Michigan municipal water is medium in terms of dissolved solids and tds. We run 225 ppm TDS, and 185 to 190 mg/liter Total Alkalinity. For my azaleas I had problems with a "normal" bonsai mix, I went to either 100% Kanuma, or to a mix containing at least 25% pine bark. I water with municipal water only when using liquid fertilizer or during dry spells. The rest of the time I collect enough rain water that I can water my azalea with rain water. Turns out that once a week with rain water is enough to flush out excess calcium building up in the mix that my azalea do fine in Kanuma or a mix with lots of pine bark. Pine bark as it decomposes makes the mix more acidic in part by releasing weak organic acids as it decays.

Blueberries require very acidic soils, more acidic than what an azalea would require. They are calcifuges, any excess of calcium quickly overwhelms their ability to buffer their root zone and they simply turn up their toes and die. For Blueberries, Kanuma alone is not acidic enough. At least not acidic enough when combined with out municipal water. For blueberries I use a mix that is pine bark and peat moss in equal proportions, to which I add about a tablespoon (15ml by volume) of elemental sulfur per gallon (4 liters) of mix. This will tolerate municipal water. The blueberries love it. It is not an ideal bonsai mix, but we own a blueberry farm, and size up explants from tissue culture for a season or two before planting them out.

Basically, if you design your bonsai mix to your water chemistry, then you don't have to fiddle with pH every time you water. In fact most of the time, most places, you won't have to fiddle with pH.
 

Toraidento

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You can design your potting mix to assist or compensate for high total alkalinity of your water. For example. If you have very soft water, like our Canadian friends living on the Laurentian Shield, they have soft water, low total alkalinity, usually less than 50 mg/liter. They can grow azaleas in just about any potting mix. Even Turface would work well. The reason is the water has very little calcium carbonate. It doesn't matter whether the mix has some or not.

In my area, my Lake Michigan municipal water is medium in terms of dissolved solids and tds. We run 225 ppm TDS, and 185 to 190 mg/liter Total Alkalinity. For my azaleas I had problems with a "normal" bonsai mix, I went to either 100% Kanuma, or to a mix containing at least 25% pine bark. I water with municipal water only when using liquid fertilizer or during dry spells. The rest of the time I collect enough rain water that I can water my azalea with rain water. Turns out that once a week with rain water is enough to flush out excess calcium building up in the mix that my azalea do fine in Kanuma or a mix with lots of pine bark. Pine bark as it decomposes makes the mix more acidic in part by releasing weak organic acids as it decays.

Blueberries require very acidic soils, more acidic than what an azalea would require. They are calcifuges, any excess of calcium quickly overwhelms their ability to buffer their root zone and they simply turn up their toes and die. For Blueberries, Kanuma alone is not acidic enough. At least not acidic enough when combined with out municipal water. For blueberries I use a mix that is pine bark and peat moss in equal proportions, to which I add about a tablespoon (15ml by volume) of elemental sulfur per gallon (4 liters) of mix. This will tolerate municipal water. The blueberries love it. It is not an ideal bonsai mix, but we own a blueberry farm, and size up explants from tissue culture for a season or two before planting them out.

Basically, if you design your bonsai mix to your water chemistry, then you don't have to fiddle with pH every time you water. In fact most of the time, most places, you won't have to fiddle with pH.
I did search for posts about pH but I didn't see anything that helped me. But thank for your explanation. It was very intuitive. I really didn't think it was a big issues. I was also wondering if I should send a sample to a near by University to have it tested for TDS. I know some Universities will test water samples. I was thinking about dissolved salt in my water living so near the ocean. I am on a community well. That is over 400 ft deep. I also lack the a green thumb and have never been into gardening until getting into this back in 2017. So this is still a learning process.
 

hemmy

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I was thinking about dissolved salt in my water living so near the ocean. I am on a community well. That is over 400 ft deep.

It is probably that deep for exactly that reason, to avoid saltwater intrusion. Apologies if you already stated, but if your well is part of an organized water district I would think they are required to test and report the results. Should be online or available upon request. Leo has posted good info here and great info elsewhere. Search pH and alkalinity, but try putting his name in the member option to filter.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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I did search for posts about pH but I didn't see anything that helped me. But thank for your explanation. It was very intuitive. I really didn't think it was a big issues. I was also wondering if I should send a sample to a near by University to have it tested for TDS. I know some Universities will test water samples. I was thinking about dissolved salt in my water living so near the ocean. I am on a community well. That is over 400 ft deep. I also lack the a green thumb and have never been into gardening until getting into this back in 2017. So this is still a learning process.

Since you are on a community well, there should be a annual report, which should have at least the average TDS already reported. It might also have the full array of tests, including total alkalinity. No need to send a sample for testing if you can get your report.

If you do opt to have a sample tested, get BOTH the total alkalinity and total dissolved solids. Reason is, salt water can raise total dissolved solids without raising total alkalinity. The greater the difference between TDS and Total Alkalinity, the more sea water is in your water. In Karst limestone wells, TDS and Total Alkalinity is nearly the same, in Louisiana where there is salt incursion into the aquifers, there is a large difference between the TDS and the Total Alkalinity.

If you want to test your water, your local Agriculture Extension Office will have a list of labs in your county that can do it. The TDS test should be near $20, and the Total Alkalinity test should be around $40. Every county in the USA has an Ag Extension Office.

Have you seriously considered the possibility your dull foliage is NOT pH related? You have not mentioned whether the azaleas seem more heavily damaged than the Junipers or Pines. If everything seems equally affected, there is likely an issue different than water alkalinity or pH that is the problem. What else do you use on all your trees? A fertilizer? Pesticide?, Soil Additive? There very well could be something else going on.

I found mites, any of the mites, including spider mites, false mites, flat mites and ones I don't remember the names of, can get going in wide spread infestations that without close examination just look like dull foliage. Its only on close inspection that you find them. My old eyes don't even see them, I know they are there only by the damage they do.

So take a close look. Explore other possible causes.

Also find out if the professional gardens in your community, landscape nurseries, or public garden, or high end hobby gardeners, find out if they are treating their water, or if they just use the municipal water as is without modification. That will tell you if there is a problem to worry about.
 
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