Watering BS

[Clicio]

Then you really HAVE to learn how to water that individual tree. You know......actually having to acquire a skill. If a person can't figure out how to water a tree, bonsai might not be his cup of tea.

Just trying to understand, for the sake of this conversation.
This "you" that you are referring to is it a generic "you"?
Or are you responding directly to me?
Just to be clear, I have no problems at all watering my trees. Pines, deciduous, evergreens, tropicals.

 

[leatherback]

This often happens when a tree with and old solid rootball is “slip potted”, or just poorly potted into a larger pot that is filled with modern bonsai soil. The water will run right thru the new soil. But the roots are in the old, compacted, rootball. And the water doesn’t have time to soak into the compacted rootball. It takes the easiest path, which is diwn thru the fresh soil. The roots will continue to pull water from the compacted rootball which gets dryer and dryer. The rootball can get so dry, it actually repels water! It takes a good soaking to remedy this.

This is why “slip potting” is never recommended. The best method is a half bare root repot . That way, half the old roots will be in the new soil. Two years later, do the other half.

Nah, this was actually on a properly repotted tree the year before. As in..


But the top layer of substrate did not dry out as fast as the bottom, as it is planted deep to stimulate nebari development. However, now at the end of season, the pot does not drain anymore; repot again in spring.

 

[Adair M]

Nah, this was actually on a properly repotted tree the year before. As in..
View attachment 326297

But the top layer of substrate did not dry out as fast as the bottom, as it is planted deep to stimulate nebari development. However, now at the end of season, the pot does not drain anymore; repot again in spring.

Deep, as in to promote downward growing roots? I never do this. I would pot wide and shallow to promote roots growing “out” not “down”.

when I repot, I always remove the downward growing roots.

 

[leatherback]

Deep as in, the nebari fully covered

 

[Clicio]

But the top layer of substrate did not dry out as fast as the bottom...

And why is that so?

 

[Clicio]

I would pot wide and shallow to promote roots growing “out” not “down”.
when I repot, I always remove the downward growing roots.

Hummm... I guess @leatherback knows how to promote a spreading nebari alright, @Adair M .
What I am curious to know is why should a top soil keep wet and the bottom of the rootball dry.

 

[Adair M]

Water will find the easiest path down. And that’s along the sides of the pot. So, the outside, around the rim, will stay wet, while the center, under the trunk will tend to dry out.

 

[Shibui]

Yesterday, it was 90F here.

Wet Pots, when just the loose "peak" DE is white, and the rest still grey.

According to (most) everything taught, this soil doesn't get watered.

The trees were wilting.

A great deal depends on what the trees are used to. Trees that have constant abundant water adjust to that. They become stressed when moisture levels fall. The same tree which is accustomed to less water and occasional dry adjusts to the conditions, maybe becomes more conservative with water use? maybe less growth? It will tolerate far drier conditions without showing stress and will survive far drier than the previous tree.

Similarly: We know that leaves adjust to available light levels. Moving a tree suddenly from shade to strong light will burn those leaves. Moving aver a period allows the leaves to adjust so they won't burn.
Trees that are accustomed to more water need more water but they can transition to lower water use if the changes are slow enough for metabolism to adjust.
Add permutations of species and individual differences.

 

[Shibui]

Water will find the easiest path down. And that’s along the sides of the pot. So, the outside, around the rim, will stay wet, while the center, under the trunk will tend to dry out.

In my older trees the surface roots have fused into a woody plate. Water cannot pass through so to wet the soil under the trunk water must soak down the sides then back into the centre.

 

[coh]

Water will find the easiest path down. And that’s along the sides of the pot. So, the outside, around the rim, will stay wet, while the center, under the trunk will tend to dry out.

There have been times when I thought I watered a tree pretty well, then pulled out a weed and all the soil that came out with the roots was dry.

When I first started bonsai I was scared by all the warnings about over-watering, to the point I'm sure I was underwatering my trees. Now they get soaked a lot more thoroughly.

The one thing that people have to remember though is to not only water the trees thoroughly, but also to observe how individual trees respond. It's harder to over-water in modern substrate but not impossible. Plus some pots have the nasty habit of holding more water than they should (if the bottom has low spots).

 

[Clicio]

Plus some pots have the nasty habit of holding more water than they should (if the bottom has low spots).

Yes, I've seen pots with inside depressions over the feet, trapping water on the four corners of the bottom. Bad pots, I guess, and very bad for the bonsai.

 

[Adair M]

Yes, I've seen pots with inside depressions over the feet, trapping water on the four corners of the bottom. Bad pots, I guess, and very bad for the bonsai.

Yeah, those are bad pots.

Interesting that a lot of the old Antique Chinese pots have convex bottoms. Where the middle of the bottom plate of the pot is high, so that water would be directed out towards the sides where the holes are.

 

[sorce]

Yesterday, it was 90F here.

Wet Pots, when just the loose "peak" DE is white, and the rest still grey.

According to (most) everything taught, this soil doesn't get watered.

The trees were wilting.

@Shibui ...

This tree was a Buckthorn. Our invasive understory thicket thorn.

Same that I first noticed this phenomenon with.

I realized a week or so later this year, that it was actually needing shade.

Finally put the puzzle together.

Sorce

 

[sorce]

Bad pots, I guess, and very bad for the bonsai.

Often times we need that extra bit of held moisture for some trees. We should use these for those. Or simply adjust our soiling Habits. Instead of soiling our pot purchase choices!

Sorce

 

[Joe Dupre']

Just trying to understand, for the sake of this conversation.
This "you" that you are referring to is it a generic "you"?
Or are you responding directly to me?
Just to be clear, I have no problems at all watering my trees. Pines, deciduous, evergreens, tropicals.

Oh, no, not directed at you. Just the generic "you". It's just that some people need to follow a very spacific procedure for many things in bonsai. Some things just can't be explained in absolute detail. So, figuring out a watering schedule for a particular scenario has to be learned. Heck, some trees in my own garden get more sun than others and have to be watered differently sometimes.

 

[Clicio]

Heck, some trees in my own garden get more sun than others and have to be watered differently sometimes.

Yes, this is so true.
I try to put the pines and junipers on the most sunny spots, so if they dry up a little they can take it.

 

[Carol 83]

I realized a week or so later this year, that it was actually needing shade.

Same thing here. My Mulberry from @Zach Smith was in good draining soil and watered well, but was failing. I reached out to Zach with a couple of pictures and he diagnosed the roots were getting too hot. I moved it to a shadier spot and it bounced right back.

 

[leatherback]

Hummm... I guess @leatherback knows how to promote a spreading nebari alright, @Adair M .
What I am curious to know is why should a top soil keep wet and the bottom of the rootball dry.

I am not sure what caused it. It did make me realize that sometimes going by gut is better than by eye. I thought earlier that day my trees needed water. But decided against it.
Note, the eaonymous is my signal tree: It is the first to tell me water is low, so I am particularly focussed on that one. But I was surprised to see it droopy even though the topsoil was not fully dry. Really do not know how.

 

[ConorDash]

There have been times when I thought I watered a tree pretty well, then pulled out a weed and all the soil that came out with the roots was dry.

When I first started bonsai I was scared by all the warnings about over-watering, to the point I'm sure I was underwatering my trees. Now they get soaked a lot more thoroughly.

The one thing that people have to remember though is to not only water the trees thoroughly, but also to observe how individual trees respond. It's harder to over-water in modern substrate but not impossible. Plus some pots have the nasty habit of holding more water than they should (if the bottom has low spots).

I encountered the same issue, this year. My perception of what "watering" was, changed entirely.. even though I had done bonsai for 3 years before this year.
Now I've a maple which is in pure akadama and am watering well, and it shows signs of ... some kinda damage, as if I am over watering! Not dehydration damage..
So yeah, 4 years in, watering still a problem for me.

 

[leatherback]

pure akadama

root of evil