Weakened neagari Satsuki

[bwaynef]

I have a neagari ‘Korin’
Satsuki azalea. When it came to me it’d already lost an upper branch. It lost another last year. Here it is this year and looks like another branch is gone. I’ve taken a bit of advice from Peter Warren and wrapped a rag around this branch and trying to keep it moistened. I also moved it to more shade, under one of my benches.

Has anyone dealt with a declining Satsuki and been able to turn it around? PW mentions that it’s difficult to do.

It’s just bloomed so I’m not against repotting it, though it was repotted two years ago into straight kanuma.

Since these photos the weak branch has browned even more.

 

[0soyoung]

My experience with azaleas, in general, is that loosing branches is a consequence of having lost roots. Have you closely examined the exposed root(s) aligned with the branch?

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Gosh sorry to see this happening to your tree!

I have not saved a single branch, but was lucky enough to save an entire tree, minus a branch. . See this thread.

In my experience Korin is a beautiful, yet tender (here) satsuki. This from direct observation both of 5-6 yoa plants and from observing the cuttings I took in the past year growth can many other satsuki. Korin is a bit of a diva, temperamental and doesn’t like cold, wet, humid conditions imho. Treated well, it delivers joy in the form of nice foliage and beautiful flowers.

In this case it seems @Osoyoung is spot on… it’s all about the roots health at this time of the year. We actually tried the towel routine, with Sphagnum inside at the museum after PW visited a couple years ago, didn’t work…yetI was convinced it was more about pruning a branch below the affected branch off all at once causing partial die back to the roots.

So I’m wondering about the type media and the winter storage…. and if these are apical branches, on one side or ramdom.

One thought is you could try trimming the branch back to the innermost foliage and cut pasting to reduce the load… Al’s H2O2 in the media.

Also, you might try a PM to @JudyB or @Cadillactaste (Negari Gal).

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[bwaynef]

I was given this tree after being asked to repot a bunch of trees for this tree's previous owner. I noticed that the more kanuma-by-percentage in the soil media, the better the health of the tree. I don't remember this one's soil mix, but I know that when I got it out of the pot, it completely barerooted. (And it'd already lost the highest branch in the canopy.) As a result, I didn't trim it back hard the first year, and removed all the flowers. PW has since mentioned that it is healthy to allow satsuki to flower as it disrupts their hormone cycle to completely remove all flowers. As a result, I've let it flower this year. The weak branch developed flower buds this year but the color of the foliage was off. I don't think any flowers bloomed on that branch this year.

Its in straight Kanuma and I greenhoused it (ever-so-slightly above freezing) on nights when it was going to dip below freezing. I've noticed some of the neagari-structure is dead as well, so it makes sense that some section of the canopy would be dying off. These were apical branches, and slightly to one side.

Would anyone (having experienced something similar), recommend repotting at this time of the year? It seems to drain well presently. Any other steps to take?

I'm also content (that's not exactly true) to sit back and let it choose which branches its going to drop. If I don't repot this summer, it will likely need repotting next spring.

 

[bwaynef]

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/share-your-neagari.48465/post-837066 <-- here it is about this time last year. (*edit* I think it may've been from the year before when I repotted it.*edit*)

 

[Glaucus]

I hear that Korin is hardy and fast growing. It also seems quite vigorous (budding on hold wood). But maybe the fast growth can make it delicate at times.
Neagari azalea definitely are an additional challenge. Some very large ones get imported from Japan. And depending on the local climate and the lack of for example a greenhouse, they may struggle a lot more. Keeping the entire root&nebari system moist can be challenging.

A branch dying like that definitely suggests a root problem to me. The roots that support that branch can no longer do so. And with the plant waking up and the metabolism going up, the branch simply dries out.

I don't buy into the PW flower and hormone cycle theory. And if PW fully believes it, he should let an azalea flower fully, and not remove all flowers as the first one starts to fade (which I think is what he suggested to do).

Not sure what the best option is. Inspecting the roots without a repot is not really an option. And I wouldn't advice to repot a plant that has been weakened. Unless root rot is the cause.
A repot 2 years ago in 100% kanuma sounds very good, so there should be no need to repot anyway.

I can't see the entire tree, but maybe taking the loss on this branch is the best strategy forward.
I am not fully a azalea bonsai expert, but I have this working theory that if a branch weakens because of the root system, the best option could be to prune off most of the foliage of that branch, except for a few leaves. This would then reduce the water demand on those roots by a lot. But there would still be leaves to keep the sap flowing. This in contrast with keeping all leaves, where all leaves together take a little bit of the water the roots can provide, but none get enough to not die.
Preventing all moisture loss could also work. A branch that lost supporting roots can be seen as a cutting that has to be rooted.

It is definitely possible to turn a weakened azalea around. I can't speak for high quality large neagari bonsai. I myself have had many azalea cuttings that were weakened for various reasons, and turned them around. What it takes is making the correct change, then a growing season of patience, and then a growing season of good strong growth.

Definitely keep this one out of the sunlight and keep it well watered. With kanuma and late spring, overwatering would mean watering it 3 to 5 times a day. Watering once and keeping the kanuma dark should do it. I do wonder if there are special neagari tricks, like packing the entire neagari with sphagnum or something.

Always keep observing the newest growth. This is indicative of the current health of the azalea.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Further thinking about this issue…. and viewing your image from last year.

There isn’t a lot of negari satsuki restoration literature. Actually haven’t seen one reference to this in all my research through the entire PB Museum library of azalea information.

Looking at the tree, it’s actually an issue of an aging satsuki. Plus some root issues. Together things are accelerating towards decay. Yet it seems restoration is possible to me.

Dying of the apex is common once an azalea’s branches reaches a certain age. That’s because the sap pathways in the branches eventually get smaller and smaller over time…and the apex on a nasally dominant tree takes the hit first.

Unless the branches are revitalized by regrowing them over time, with young sap pathways the entire tree will weaken over time. This can be forestalled by sharp cutting back every third year and also by trimming properly to get light inside the canopy to allow back budding toward the trunk. The situation gets worse if the tree is allowed to bloom every year.

[As an aside. PW is a bit of an outlier in saying the tree would be ok to bloom every year, as @Glaucus mentioned. (As a professional I’m not sure PW ever really meant to allow trees to bloom fully each year, because it’s not done.) Recognize even show azaleas aren’t allowed to fully bloom in show years. The strong and weak buds are excised and others to keep the bloom spacing from being overcrowded, spoiling the display. so the tree will never bloom fully each year. At least a 1/3 or more one th buds are excised before the bloom. Standard dogma is to not allow blooming every third year for the tree to regain strength (from blooming 2/3 or less!).]

Yet eventually all branches have to be replaced. Your photo last year was a sign that the basal branches needed to be cut back hard to help divert energy to the apex. Waiting allowed the resources to continue being directed basally. Not your fault, you didn’t know. It is a very impressive and likely one time expensive tree. You merely thought a new apex needed to be grown.

Once I saw the photo all the pieces clicked in. We have a number of azaleas at the museum tha5 we work on and some are in the same situation…. Here’s an example of an R. Kiusianum with the same issue. You can see the apex is weak… it bloomed late and less then normal each year until this last fall it was in restoration status. This was timely. Last fall the basal branches were reduced by a third. This year flowering is kept minimal, the basal branches are being pushed back further and new growth is appearing at the apex and near the middle pad and is allowed to grow at will. Our restoration will take est. 5-8 years at this time… hopefully less.



So here’s what I’m proposing.
Cut off most if not all of the flower buds.…. push back all the lower branch growth soonest.
Allow new growth to sprout unchecked, especially off the trunk where new upper branches/apex can be formed.
Encourage growth off the lower trunk in areas that could be new lower branches.

Also investigate the media. Root issues in Kanuma only or Kanuma with minor amounts of pumice are virtually unknown with proper care. Its awful hard to overwater a Kanuma only media. Bark, turface etc only complicate the media. Chopped Sphagnum moss is only if you need additional moisture retention and if you trace any roots in poor condition Sphagnum can be used to wrap these. This may mean carefully replacing some of the media this year,

So I’ll toss in an out of the box idea that will definately help boost the roots and top hamper health. Take it or leave it. Some folks would rather tough it out with what they have. It will definately get the tree healthier faster. Yet your tree, your choice

Fashion a plastic collar over the negari… you choose whether it to take it all the way up to the top. Any amount from a 1/3 on up should help. Fill the negari with medium Kanuma… and water as normal. This will make the existing roots healthy and sprout new roots off of them, feeding the green growth. After two growing seasons you can slowly lower the “collar”, picking out the Kanuma and any Sphagnum.

Like I said, your tree, your choice. Thanks for hearing me out.

cheers
DSD sends

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Good luck. I have seen a number of Satsuki lose their crowns and none recovered. Seems to be the way they go down.

 

[Mellow Mullet]

It appears to be a fungus that attacks the roots this time of year, I lost six last year and have another that is dead on one side. Some were young, some were old. I starts like the picture you show above, the leaves wilt and eventually turn brown and fall off. There is really not much you can do when it gets this bad, either the whole tree will die or part of it. I managed to save two (one of them was only half) with weekly soakings in a tub of Phyton 27 (35 will work too) until improvement was observed. I don't use kanuma, only lava and pumice with a little bark added to retain a little moisture.

It is bad as it strikes at repotting time, and has an easier route to attack as the roots are cut during repotting. I now soak all of the rootballs in Phyton before potting them back up, it seems to help.

You can get phyton at amazon or ebay. It is a little expensive for a whole container but lasts a few years, there are also those that break it down in smaller quantities on ebay.

John

 

[bwaynef]

Mellow Mullet, what led you to believe it was fungal related? Any idea which fungus you were dealing with? I have Phyton27 stashed away somewhere.

@Deep Sea Diver, I really like the re-neagarizing plan. I actually thought about that before coming back to read your post, but seems like your idea was better thought out than mine ...so I'll give you credit.

Thanks for the pre-condolences. I'm not going to throw in the towel yet, but I'm not hopeful of it recovering. Still, I'll consider all reasonable steps to save it.

(Recently bought a Japanese magazine on troubleshooting Satsuki azaleas. It doesn't cover this issue or anything too similar.)


<EDIT>It looks like Phytophthora is a widely known disease that attacks azaleas with similar symptoms to what I'm seeing. Now to decide which fungicide to use to treat it. With the symptoms matching so closely, I wonder if there's any benefit to having this ID'd in the plant pathology lab at the university... (and why didn't I think of that earlier?!)</EDIT>

 

[Glaucus]

Losing an apex is sadly 'fairly normal' with azaleas. I had some very vigorous cuttings that were doing really well where suddenly the apex branches just lost all leaves.
From that, I can imagine with bonsai that can be even more common. And for sure it is a known and documented issue.

If I had an neagari tree and it was really struggling, I would consider planting it in full soil, with all the neagari buried.
Same can be done in a pot and 're-neagarizing' it. Better to try that than to lose an entire bonsai.

I would also be interested to hear in how it was IDed as a fungus problem.
Also, you mean Satsuki Kenkyu, @bwaynef? You'd need to be able to read it.
I think you can now buy digitalized Satsuki Kenkyu. Which can be translated by google translate.
But I have not tried it yet.
Nope, you can only request the publisher to consider making it available on Kindle.

 

[bwaynef]

Also, you mean Satsuki Kenkyu, @bwaynef? You'd need to be able to read it.
I think you can now buy digitalized Satsuki Kenkyu. Which can be translated by google translate.
But I have not tried it yet.
Nope, you can only request the publisher to consider making it available on Kindle.

 

[Glaucus]

Hmm, interesting. Never saw that one before. Is it dual English Japanese? Publisher?

 

[bwaynef]

It’s completely in Japanese. I’m using a translating app.

 

[Glaucus]

Oh, it is by Tochinoha Shobo. They put out basically all the Japanese satuski books, magazines, and dictionaries.

And I checked their website again, and you can get ebooks:

月刊さつき研究 2021年10月号｜栃の葉書房｜電子書籍｜shinanobook.com｜シナノ

電子書籍販売サイトshinanobook.com

www.shinanobook.com

Which might still be picture only and not allow you to copy the characters directly.
I have not had good results with free to use phone camera, text recognition into translation apps.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Losing an apex is an opportunity to rethink, rework and restyle. I’ve got this book on Satsuki Bonsai by My Nakayama (exceedingly rare English translation) that demonstrates reworking apexes in one section. It’s been successfully done many times apparently. My bet one why we in the US have troubles with satsuki is that we haven’t yet established the knowledge bank to anticipate the issues and react properly. I think Rick Garcia‘s new book might help…but it isn’t out yet.

I’ve been lucky to be able to work with the Curator at the Pacific Bonsai Museum 1-2 days a week. He has helped broaden my idea and techniques banks over the past three years.

I’m not conversant with Phython 27/35 @Mellow Mullet suggests. But I do know Hydrogen peroxide will kill just about any root fungus, bacteria etc out there given a chance and regular application through the year. It has knocked this issue out of any of my azaleas in peat/bark/perlite or trees in APL based medias.… I’ve not had the issue in the Kanuma based media. So as it’s so rainy here I rush to rootwash in the 2-3 year stage and put all my azaleas into Kanuma.

Looks like you’ve got a lot of experienced help here, while I’m still working on recovering from my chest surgery, so I’ll punch out unless you need anything further.

Best of Luck!
DSD sends

 

[Mellow Mullet]

Mellow Mullet, what led you to believe it was fungal related? Any idea which fungus you were dealing with? I have Phyton27 stashed away somewhere.

@Deep Sea Diver, I really like the re-neagarizing plan. I actually thought about that before coming back to read your post, but seems like your idea was better thought out than mine ...so I'll give you credit.

Thanks for the pre-condolences. I'm not going to throw in the towel yet, but I'm not hopeful of it recovering. Still, I'll consider all reasonable steps to save it.

(Recently bought a Japanese magazine on troubleshooting Satsuki azaleas. It doesn't cover this issue or anything too similar.)


<EDIT>It looks like Phytophthora is a widely known disease that attacks azaleas with similar symptoms to what I'm seeing. Now to decide which fungicide to use to treat it. With the symptoms matching so closely, I wonder if there's any benefit to having this ID'd in the plant pathology lab at the university... (and why didn't I think of that earlier?!)</EDIT>

Through observation, you repot 20 the same day in the same media, six die. I researched the symptoms and talked to others who grow satsukis. I came to the same conclusion as you --Phytophthora. It matches the symptoms, right down to the brown discoloration of the wood in the dead areas. I like the Phyton because it is copper based. I have also used Spectator and Clearly's.

If you catch it early enough, it will work, or you can save the parts that have not started showing signs of the wilting, but if it has already killed the roots all the way up to the branch, that part is dead and won't regrow. You won't be able to rejuvenate the roots on that side as there is nothing to grow them from. I hope you can save it, it looks like a nice tree, but from my experience, part or all of it may be gone. The wilted leaves will stay that way for a long time, giving you hope, but if you scratch the branch you will start to see the brown discoloration of the wood.

 

[bwaynef]

So the best information I can concoct is that it’s best to repot Satsuki in spring. Instead of a full repot right now, I performed soji and cleaned the top layer of soil, even invoking the shop vac for a bit. There was some broken down fertilizer and dust and other detritus but there were definitely more roots than it started with several years ago. I managed to clean out some of the dead roots in the neagari tower though I’m positive I didn’t get all of the dead. I then wrapped the existing roots in window screen and 1mm aluminum to keep the form. (If I had it to do again I could do it neater but this should work. THIS operation isn’t about making it pretty right now anyway.). I proceeded to fill the lower section first, with large grain kanuma. Wrapped some more screen and began filling with small grain kanuma which settled into the spaces between the large grain below it. Filled in the soil I removed with the shop vac and watered it until it drained clear.

i had to call it quits for the night but tomorrow I’m going to drench it with zerotol (think high test peroxide) and later something systemic, likely phyton27.

 

[Pitoon]

That branch is gone. Wrapping it with a towel is not going to save it. You have an issue with the roots. Remove that branch and focus on the roots.

 

[Mellow Mullet]

I was not trying to be a pessimist, only trying to give you real world experience. I have been in the trenches, my knowledge is not some thing I read in an outdated book. Remove the branch, it is gone. Once a week, prepare a solution of the phyton and soak it for 30 minutes. Do this every week until you see improvement. I will post pictures of the two I saved if you need a look-see.

Phyton is a systemic, the roots will pick it up and circulate it throughout the plant. Any viable roots that you have will help