Weird?

LemonBonsai

Shohin
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To much light? For context this is a grapefruit tree. I have a 175 watt LED grow light. Ive been trying it at 12 hours a day and it was around 6 to 8" away from the light.
The reason why I ask is because online, it says 18 hours of light is ideal for indoor plants. And I am getting these results from 12?



So the leaf that I am pinching, was over top of the leaf with the discoloration. And I have been noticing the leaves getting dull so I did some more looking and when I moved this leaf it has created a tan line on the leaf. Or what I am assuming is a tan line.
20200924_193406.jpg
 

leatherback

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175 watt LED
that sounds like a VERY heavy duty lamp. (I have 100 watt halogene lamps to light up my entrances; On of these gives me good light up to 10 metres away).

I would suspect, yes, too intense light.
Note: there is a point where leaves get too much light. Better lower intensity longer, than high intensity over shorter periods.
 

sorce

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Might be too close to combine the spectrums of the individual Colors. I was told that once.

Sorce
 

LemonBonsai

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Thanks for all the replies. For now I have set it at a higher level as well as reduced the hours from 16 a day to 10 and i will monitor it
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Sorry what does that mean? I hooked it up to a tester and it is using 175 watts per hour. I dont know if thats what you mean

A LED light drawing 175 watts is well over the equivalent output of a 600 watt HPS, high pressure sodium lamp. That is a very powerful LED. I suggest increasing the distance between the top of the tree and the lamp. Try about 12 to 16 inches.

Second, do you have a fan running? With intense light, you should have air movement. This helps cool the leaves. Even with low light air movement will improve health. I use cheap 9 inch diameter fans, just need light air movement. Your burning was combo of bright light and no air movement.

The lamp you have is good for "full sun" trees, you can grow fairly tall trees under such a lamp. Good choice, a "pro marijuana" quality choice. But strong enough to burn if you don't have air movement.
 

LemonBonsai

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A LED light drawing 175 watts is well over the equivalent output of a 600 watt HPS, high pressure sodium lamp. That is a very powerful LED. I suggest increasing the distance between the top of the tree and the lamp. Try about 12 to 16 inches.

Second, do you have a fan running? With intense light, you should have air movement. This helps cool the leaves. Even with low light air movement will improve health. I use cheap 9 inch diameter fans, just need light air movement. Your burning was combo of bright light and no air movement.
Ok yes I did raise the light and I also lowered the grapefruit considerably. There is probably about 16" if not a little more now between the plants and light. And yes I do have a fan running, probably 12+ hours a day.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Sounds good, by the way, I leave fans on 24/7, the reason is air moving also helps keep down fungal and bacterial issues (at night humidity rises, fungal issues can increase at night) and running 24/7 keeps spider mites and other insects down. Moving air slowly mixes oxygenated air down into the potting mix. Its all subtle, but it helps to just leave the fan(s) on continuously.
 

DonovanC

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Sorry what does that mean? I hooked it up to a tester and it is using 175 watts per hour. I dont know if thats what you mean
Often LED lights will be labeled with an Incandescent Equivalent wattage.
175 watt incandescent isn’t a whole lot, the LED equivalent of that is less than 50 watts. So 175 watts LED is quite a bit as mentioned. But it looks like you’ve taken the necessary steps 👍
 

Bonsai Nut

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Can you share the light manufacturer and model? We actually aren't interested in watts... we want to see lumens, or better yet, PAR (which stands for "photosynthetically available radiation"). Watts is simply a measure of electricity usage... and is more or less meaningless if you are a plant :) Any decent plant light will provide lumens (at the minimum) or spectral intensities and PAR.

I started to write a resource on artificial lighting for beginners. You might want to check it out.
 

tainoson

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Can you share the light manufacturer and model? We actually aren't interested in watts... we want to see lumens, or better yet, PAR (which stands for "photosynthetically available radiation"). Watts is simply a measure of electricity usage... and is more or less meaningless if you are a plant :) Any decent plant light will provide lumens (at the minimum) or spectral intensities and PAR.

I started to write a resource on artificial lighting for beginners. You might want to check it out.

was just going to suggest this! i know a par graph as well as a ppfd map are very helpful. really made getting my lighting setup dialed in and even diagnosed a similar problem with my tallest tree. she was flying a little too close to the light...
 

LemonBonsai

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Can you share the light manufacturer and model? We actually aren't interested in watts... we want to see lumens, or better yet, PAR (which stands for "photosynthetically available radiation"). Watts is simply a measure of electricity usage... and is more or less meaningless if you are a plant :) Any decent plant light will provide lumens (at the minimum) or spectral intensities and PAR.

I started to write a resource on artificial lighting for beginners. You might want to check it out.
Its a feit model GLP20FS/HB/175W/LED
Here is a picture of the information on the back of the box.
20200926_153634.jpg
 

Bonsai Nut

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Excellent! So you can see in the light description not only do they include PAR, but they break down the spectral intensities, as well as including color temperature and color rendering index (which are less important to plants, but help you to understand how the light will appear to the human eye).

There is one other thing to keep in mind when you look at these numbers. Your light fixture produces 315 μmol/s PAR... but at what distance? Light diminishes based on the square of the distance from the source. This is not an issue when you are talking about light from the sun, which is 93 million miles away, because the difference between 93 million miles and 93 million miles plus or minus one foot is so small. So you're not suddenly going to get much more sunlight if you have a bonsai sitting on the ground, versus a bonsai sitting on a 3' tall garden shelf.

However when you are talking about an artificial light source hanging from a chain, a bonsai that is 2' from the light source will get FOUR TIMES as much light as a bonsai that is twice as far away (4'). So it is important to know how far away that PAR measurement was taken... and I couldn't find anything in any of the literature to tell me. Normally this would be a figure labelled PPFD which stands for photosynthetic photon flux density - or the PAR that hits a specific surface area.

What's a person to do? (1) Buy a PAR light meter, and take your own measurements, (2) call the manufacturer, (3) find a very similar light somewhere that matches the other figures of your light, and also publishes PPFD, (4) cautiously experiment with your plant and see how it responds, changing distance from the light until you hit the distance the works right for you and the plant.

Usually a light specifies the distance you should hang it over your plants. Perhaps there were some instructions? FEIT can be a little sketchy when it comes with publishing their light specs. For example on this light I can already see a mistake in their Lighting Summary. At 240 volts this fixture will draw .73 amps :) But they may very well have the information and they just haven't published it.

For reference, for growing demanding short-day fruit-bearing plants indoors you want to target 600µmol/(m2s) PPFD. If your PAR figure above was taken at a distance of one meter, you would be at 315µmol/(m2s) PPFD. If you decreased the distance to the light to a half meter, you would double your PPFD to 630µmol/(m2s) PPFD... which is perhaps even too bright. So you see how you can adjust the distance to dial in the proper intensity? (OK I know I am being a little inexact with the math, but it is close enough to illustrate the principle).

Also, as you have yourself seen, when dealing with intense artificial lighting, you have to be concerned about light shadowing. This can be minimized by the use of reflective materials on the sides of your growing area, using more than one fixture, rotating your plants, or using motorized light rails that move your lights over the course of the day (just like the sun).
 
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LemonBonsai

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Excellent! So you can see in the light description not only do they include PAR, but they break down the spectral intensities, as well as including color temperature and color rendering index (which are less important to plants, but help you to understand how the light will appear to the human eye).

There is one other thing to keep in mind when you look at these numbers. Your light fixture produces 315 μmol/s PAR... but at what distance? Light diminishes based on the square of the distance from the source. This is not an issue when you are talking about light from the sun, which is 93 million miles away, because the difference between 93 million miles and 93 million miles plus or minus one foot is so small. So you're not suddenly going to get much more sunlight if you have a bonsai sitting on the ground, versus a bonsai sitting on a 3' tall garden shelf.

However when you are talking about an artificial light source hanging from a chain, a bonsai that is 2' from the light source will get FOUR TIME AS MUCH LIGHT as a bonsai that is twice as far away (4'). So it is important to know how far away that PAR measurement was taken... and I couldn't find anything in any of the literature to tell me. Normally this would be a figure labelled PPFD which stands for photosynthetic photon flux density - or the PAR that hits a specific surface area.

What's a person to do? (1) Buy a PAR light meter, and take your own measurements, (2) call the manufacturer, (3) find a very similar light somewhere that matches the other figures of your light, and also publishes PPFD, (4) cautiously experiment with your plant and see how it responds, changing distance from the light until you hit the distance the works right for you and the plant.

Usually a light specifies the distance you should hang it over your plants. Perhaps there were some instructions? FEIT can be a little sketchy when it comes with publishing their light specs. For example on this light I can already see a mistake in their Lighting Summary. At 240 volts this fixture will draw .73 amps :) But they may very well have the information and they just haven't published it.

For reference, for growing demanding short-day fruit-bearing plants indoors you want to target 600µmol/(m2s) PPFD. If your PAR figure above was taken at a distance of one meter, you would be at 315µmol/(m2s) PPFD. If you decreased the distance to the light to a half meter, you would double your PPFD to 630µmol/(m2s) PPFD... which is perhaps even too bright. So you see how you can adjust the distance to dial in the proper intensity? (OK I know I am being a little inexact with the math, but it is close enough to illustrate the principle).

Also, as you have yourself seen, when dealing with intense artificial lighting, you have to be concerned about light shadowing. This can be minimized by the use of reflective materials on the sides of your growing area, using more than one fixture, rotating your plants, or using motorized light rails that move your lights over the course of the day (just like the sun).
This is the information that it has on the height for the plants on the box.
20200926_185540.jpg

Also I do try to rotate my plants every once in a while but clearly not enough.
 

Bonsai Nut

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Well that is helpful!

It is unusual, but in the past we had to deal with artificial lighting that was always too dim. Now we have to be careful about lighting that is too intense. FWIW this light suggests a 16,000 lumen output... which is about 50% what you would expect to get on a cloudless day at noon on a coral reef on the equator :) So it appears this light may be burning some leaves, even on a grapefruit. Increase the distance between the light and your plant, and see how it does. Just remember what I was saying about light diminishing based on the square of the distance. This applies not only to an entire plant (on average) but between the top leaves of a plant, and the bottom leaves. If the top of your grapefruit is 12" from the light, and the bottom leaves are 36" from the light, the bottom leaves will be receiving 1/9th the light intensity the top leaves are. You may end up with top leaves getting burned, while the bottom leaves are dropping due to not enough light. As you increase distance from your light source, the more uniform the light will be between the top and bottom of your plant.

I hope I am helping you think about plant lighting in a constructive way! I spent a lot of time with artificial lighting as it applies to marine reef tanks. Top of your tank gets the shallow water high intensity corals... bottom of your tank gets the lower light corals. Same theory, with the exception that light diminishes much more rapidly in water than air.
 
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LemonBonsai

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Well that is helpful!

It is unusual, but in the past we had to deal with artificial lighting that was always too dim. Now we have to be careful about lighting that is too intense. FWIW this light suggests a 16,000 lumen output... which is about 50% what you would expect to get on a cloudless day at noon on a coral reef on the equator :) So it appears this light may be burning some leaves, even on a grapefruit. Increase the distance between the light and your plant, and see how it does. Just remember what I was saying about light diminishing based on the square of the distance. This applies not only to an entire plant (on average) but between the top leaves of a plant, and the bottom leaves. If the top of your grapefruit is 12" from the light, and the bottom leaves are 36" from the light, the bottom leaves will be receiving 1/9th the light intensity the top leaves are. You may end up with top leaves getting burned, while the bottom leaves are dropping due to not enough light. As you increase distance from your light source, the more uniform the light will be between the top and bottom of your plant.

I hope I am helping you think about plant lighting in a constructive way! I spent a lot of time with artificial lighting as it applies to marine reef tanks. Top of your tank gets the shallow water high intensity corals... bottom of your tank gets the lower light corals. Same theory, with the exception that light diminishes much more rapidly in water than air.
I think i am understanding you. Thanks for the tips and I will play with it !
 
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