Went to Cut Back Maples

[AndyJ]

Hey folks.

just want to ask a question about cutting back maples after spring growth has hardened off. It’s been a strange spring this year with everything seemingly starting earlier than normal and growing really well! I want to cut back the first flush shoots on my arakawa and I really don’t want to miss my opportunity of doing it and I know it might sound daft but I’m not sure if it’s stopped growing yet! Will it matter if I jump too early and cut it back too soon? Does this affect the second flush in any way?

I think it probably has stopped growing but I thought I’d ask anyway.

Thanks all.

Andy

 

[Shibui]

You can prune maples any time. Some of us pinch out the growing tips on well developed trees as soon as the shoot is big enough to get hold of, even before the first leaves have opened properly. That is supposed to stop the previous internode from extending but I'm not sure it actually does. It does stimulate new shoots from those first buds so ramification increases.
Others let the shoots extend 3-5 pairs of leaves then cut back to just above the first pair of leaves. Again the new shoots emerge from the buds at the base of those leaves.
If the initial internode has grown too long as it often does in the first flush I cut the entire shoot close to the base. New buds grow from the end of the older part to replace it.

I don't know any reason to wait for the new shoots to harden before pruning.
When to cut does depend on the stage of development and what you are trying to achieve. allowing shoots to extend and harden will help strengthen and thicken the branches and trunk. pruning earlier will slow thickening and promote more ramification.

 

[AndyJ]

Thanks Shibui. I should have said the tree is in need of some refinement - many of the branches are too long and straight and the tree does not look refined. I’ve let all the shoots extend this spring to build up energy and then I want to cut back hard and hope I get some new shoots at the bottom of those straight trunk. If I get any shoots, I’ll cut off those straight trunks in fall. (I should mention that none of these straight trunks have started to cork up yet.)

Hope my plan works!

 

[Shibui]

Sounds like a typical fast grown AP - straight with no taper and long internodes. Your plan to replace that growth is sound. There are far too many mediocre AP bonsai where people have been too frightened to remove the poor framework. Good luck with this development. If you don't get the buds you want this way I would just cut closer to the places you want the buds to force the issue. Sounds like the tree is still quite young so should bud quite well after pruning.

 

[Underdog]

I hope it's okay to pile on your thread @AndyJ
I have a pair of Bloodgoods (I know) I put them in my grow bed, in baskets fall of 2018. They took off very well in spring of 19 and I pruned them back moderately after 6-8 pairs of leaves appeared.
They just seemed to stall out and grow very little afterwards. Did get moderate growth after summer but seems I lost a lot of spring growth. They just glared at me for months.

This spring I have nearly 3 feet of extension already and haven't pruned for fear of them shutting down again. I plan to follow the often advised "after hardening off" time to prune.

I'm sure other factors could have been involved and certainly not disagreeing with you @Shibui but, just trying to learn what's up w/maples.
I think I have too many different flavors of trees for a fairly new (5-6yr) guy. I want them all now. LOL I have a couple dozen or more species and trying to learn them all at once. I get why people specialize in certain species when each has their nuances.

 

[sorce]

nuances

True, without know the nuances of either, I offer....

Some trees have a very evident spring growth, stop, fall growth cycle.

If you cut at sp ...it has time enough to grow again, spspring.
But if you wait too long and cut it at sprin...
It's going to wait for fall growth.
Or maybe go... sprinf. Pause .then fall..
The f in sprinf being a pause like you got, maybe a little bud set for fall, but then it goes dormant to switch gears.

Reckon that's why tips are pinched early, to effectively utilize a change and growth.

Cutting later has its uses. Slowing growth, and I reckon you always get better backbudding cutting during growth, specifically, more towards the end of spring or fall, when that seasons energy is greatest.
But then we risk late growth being weak, dying in winter, etc.

So there is always a trade off.

Paying attention to the very subtle underlying moon patterns also can help.

Sorce

 

[BobbyLane]

ive already cut back in the crown twice on one of my maples and wired the whole tree. to allow light into the lower branches so they strengthen. constantly cutting back the crown means the tops ramifies while the lower branches get stronger. this concept can be applied to any deciduous tree in the growing season, trouble is there is so much rules around maples that newbies end up thinking they're not allowed to be pruned ever or they will bleed for eternity

yes you can apply it to maples too. its a deciduous tree afterall

 

[BobbyLane]

I hope it's okay to pile on your thread @AndyJ
I have a pair of Bloodgoods (I know) I put them in my grow bed, in baskets fall of 2018. They took off very well in spring of 19 and I pruned them back moderately after 6-8 pairs of leaves appeared.
They just seemed to stall out and grow very little afterwards. Did get moderate growth after summer but seems I lost a lot of spring growth. They just glared at me for months.

This spring I have nearly 3 feet of extension already and haven't pruned for fear of them shutting down again. I plan to follow the often advised "after hardening off" time to prune.

I'm sure other factors could have been involved and certainly not disagreeing with you @Shibui but, just trying to learn what's up w/maples.
I think I have too many different flavors of trees for a fairly new (5-6yr) guy. I want them all now. LOL I have a couple dozen or more species and trying to learn them all at once. I get why people specialize in certain species when each has their nuances.

if a deciduous tree is healthy and you cut back before hardening off, in around two weeks backbudding will occur. this might vary for one flush species like beech. any other healthy tree in full sun, fed and watered well will back bud at around the two weeks mark.

 

[AndyJ]

Ok, thanks Bobby I’ll give it a go now then. I’m not so much worried about it bleeding out, more that I’m confused as to when is the best time to cut back to take advantage of the trees ability to go again. I’d read somewhere that you should wait until he initial flush had hardened off so was kinda waiting for that.

 

[WNC Bonsai]

My maples grew like crazy early on when it got real warm, then it went back to more normal temps and the seem to have backed off now. This week we are down in the 30s overnight and only my tridents are pushing new leaves and shoots. I hope that once temps warm up again I’ll see the maples respond more. I also lost several seedlings that just died overnight. In a couple cases it was likely due to be in full sun in a stiff breeze. I am beginning to thonk you need to start 100 seedlings just to get 10 to survive long enough to make a forest. Tridents not so much, but the darned palmatums are a pain.

 

[Forsoothe!]

The first order of business is to grow-up or chop back or otherwise create the basic architecture of major branches, then minor branches, then refinement AFTER you get the basic architecture you create a canopy shape in your mind's eye. Then you pinch, hedge or otherwise edit according to whatever philosophy or seasonal pattern that suits your soul. Maples have successive flushes and respond to trimming pretty quickly. You need to get to the point where your pinching is just removing some outer buds to redirect growth elsewhere instead of stealing a lot energy that was used to create a lot those buds or leaves or wood. You can't refine until after you create the basic architecture, and conversely you do not remove much wood after the major architecture has been grown. After that time you want to build lots of buds and you that by growing buds that you don't cut off. Remember that ramification is the process of getting two buds emerging from the base of each leaf, except from the primary leaf which puts out 1, 2, or rarely 3 new primaries that have a cluster of 3 buds which occurs naturally, but we can encourage two, or more secondaries to expand new primary buds out in the next flush by removing the primary via pinching. The process of shifting energy directed to the secondaries from the primary begins as soon as the primary is removed and pinching buds occurs sooner than removing the fully grown tip leaf. Once you get to the point of only pinching a few (relatively few) buds that are going to violate our imaginary canopy limits the pinching becomes minimal and the major effort shifts to maintaining a size rather than growing bigger or fuller and we give it a hedge trimming in autumn and pinch occationally in the growing season a minimal amount to remove the too strong or any that threatens to violate the canopy boundary.

Peter Tea has a basic set of rules he calls 1,2, 3, 4, 5. You accomplish each whole step before advancing to the next step because what you do in the next step interferes with what you want to accomplish in the previous steps. First, grow the tree to the point you're happy with the base/nebari. For that you need as many leaves as you can get. You don't pinch while you are doing major growing. You do one or the other. Second, after you're happy with the base you grow the trunk taper. Third, major branches in proportion. Forth, refine the architecture to cloud shape or canopy structure. Fifth, refine the canopy or layers. View the process from the kinds of wire you are using at any stage: when you are using 5mm you're not using much 1mm, in each stage you are using smaller and smaller wire to control smaller and more refined wood. You don't use any 1mm in the early steps, and you don't use any 5mm after the second step, The direct relationship between the surface area of leaves present and the amount of wood produced is absolute so you want to as many leaves as possible while growing major wood. The amount of ramification is also directly relative to the number of leaves you leave on the tree to double for next year.

Less than 20 buds have been remove from this 23" tree this spring to keep it within boundaries.

 

[AndyJ]

Thanks @Forsoothe! for the detailed reply! I like what you say about Peter Tea’s 1,2,3,4,5 method - I think I could use that to help me remember what stage I’m at.

Here‘s my tree from spring before the buds, shoots and leaves all appeared. You can see from all the three arrows the really straight branches that I don’t like. I’ve set an air-layer on that top branch - that’s really straight but might be ok to start a new tree with. I‘m fairly happy with the tree’s overall structure but those young branches that are arrow straight need to go!

 

[AndyJ]

Just realised the rest if my post didn’t load! Trying again ....

Thanks @Forsoothe! for the detailed reply! I like what you say about Peter Tea’s 1,2,3,4,5 method - I think I could use that to help me remember what stage I’m at.

Here‘s my tree from spring before the buds, shoots and leaves all appeared. You can see from all the three arrows the really straight branches that I don’t like. I’ve set an air-layer on that top branch - that’s really straight but might be ok to start a new tree with. I‘m fairly happy with the tree’s overall structure but those young branches that are arrow straight need to go!

I’m hoping that by letting the tree grow well in spring, and then cutting these straight branches off down to just above its preceding branch union, the tree will throw loads

 

[Forsoothe!]

There's a nice tree in there. I'd keep that lowest one you don't like and bring it down 20 or 30° into a layer, but try to limit the number of leaves so the RH pair can catch up in diameter. The lowest RH down 30 to 40° will be easier and grow it sort of unrestrained, never removing any leaves as the two (as I see them) spread as wide as ~40° wide on that side of the tree. They will look stupid for a couple years getting too long from a design standpoint, they can catch up to lower LH and when the two RH are the same diameter as the split two LH, then leave the same number of leaves on each so they stay the same, OR maybe 25% more on RH which should be bigger than LH.

The top has plenty of branches to just spread as wide as practical now and make them a nice head. If you get lucky and buds emerge as shown in staircase positions zero, 3 & 5, let them grow and balance the growth overall by counting leaves, always having more leafs on branches too small for their positions, and after that when all branches are the right diameter marching up the tree, keep things in balance by having each layer have successively fewer leaves the their lower predecessor. Zero needs to be above the graft, but as close above the graft as you get lucky to have it to desguise the graft which will always be there, but can be less noticeable if there is a branch growing there. Do not aim to make the tree pretty now. Let the the short, thin branches grow like fools to China, wired to grow in the correct plane, but as long as they will until they get close enough in desired diameter (where they are connected to the trunk), then drive them back to obtain the golden triangle outline...

Or something like that. This is not a blueprint for you, it is to demonstrate that you take what you start with, make some kind of judgement about where you want to take the tree, make a map, and then follow it making adjustments along the way. Bon voyage!

 

[AndyJ]

Great stuff @Forsoothe! I like it and I'm pretty sure I know what you mean!

 

[BrightsideB]

Hello all! I have a question about cutting this jm seiryu really hard. Mainly a trunk chop. As well as bare rooting it into bonsai soil. It is about 6 ft right now and I am thinking of removing about 4 -5 ft.
I also believe I read that when buying nursery stock they can take some hard prunning if they are rather healthy at any time of the year for the most part.

 

[BrightsideB]

Photo

 

[Forsoothe!]

I do not repot and chop at the same time. That's two simultaneous insults. Even if it doesn't kill it, it will slow down the recovery and prolong the regrowth process. Chops are intended to redirect growth which needs to be resupplied nutrients and water from the roots which will be smaller. A mixed metaphor, at best.

 

[BrightsideB]

I do not repot and chop at the same time. That's two simultaneous insults. Even if it doesn't kill it, it will slow down the recovery and prolong the regrowth process. Chops are intended to redirect growth which needs to be resupplied nutrients and water from the roots which will be smaller. A mixed metaphor, at best.

Thanks for the advice! I did a trunk chop and repot at the same time last year on a type of false cypress. It just started growing new growth finally without any backbudding. I could tell that tree was not happy. I see what you are saying. I will never do that again! I am thinking of just putting it into a wider pot with some fresh soil and chopping the trunk to stimulate growth this summer and fall then repot next spring.

 

[Forsoothe!]

Slip potting works anytime.