Western Display Concepts

Bill S

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Ross have you ever seen Nick Lenz works, he's done that and then some, but he still gets lambasted here and there.
 

Smoke

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For what it's worth, Yosemite and other Western landmarks have long been the subjects of Japanese art:
http://www.hanga.com/viewimage.cfm?ID=11
http://www.theartofjapan.com/ArtDetail.asp?Inv=11071548
http://www.artnet.com/artwork/425995249/113381/toshi-yoshida-mt-holy-cross-vail-colorado.html
http://www.castlefinearts.com/Japanese_fine_arts_woodblock_prints/Chiura_Obata_Biography.aspx
http://www.hanga.com/prints.cfm?ID=53

This blend of Asian and Western art began at the turn of the last century as Japanese artists adapted Western concepts to a very traditional Japanese art--the Ukiyoe woodblock print. The style was called "shin hanga."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shin_hanga

Shin hanga points the way, I think, to how we in the West could adapt the Japanese display style to our sensibilities without losing the spirit of either...

Nice images but I wouldn't exhibit a tree with any of those. They are just too loud, and too colorful and leave nothing to the imagination.
 

Yamadori

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Rock,
Thanks for the great links!

I have long thought about using an Obata print. I love his images. I hesitate because of the bright inks. I bet I'll do it some day. The amount of time I have pondered it tells me I will fulfill the vision in my mind at some point. I just dont have the right tree yet.

The Yoshida prints are new to me. I love them. There are so many famous American landscapes like El Capitan in Yosemite, Grand Canyon, and even Niagra Falls.

If we apply keido to these images, both Obata and Yoshida, then they are all too literal and too bright. They would compete with the tree. If we are flexing that rule then they fit the bill for nice Japanese prints of American landscapes. A crossover.
 

rockm

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Al,

I didn't intend for those prints to be used in display. I meant that merging eastern and western artistic sensibilities has been done (pretty effectively) before.

Old Japanese art forms (ukiyoe woodblocks) were given new life by injecting Western perspectives without sacrificing the sensibilities of either. This is the approach I think would benefit bonsai display. Rejecting "Japanese" stuff outright because it "has no meaning" to us, is self-defeating. Adapting those elements sensitively can yield surprising results...

I've seen many minimalist subdued watercolor-based paintings by western artists that could be used as accents in displays.
 

Ross

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Ross have you ever seen Nick Lenz works, he's done that and then some, but he still gets lambasted here and there.

Yeah, he's pretty far outside the box, and I like it most of the time.
 

Bill S

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"Nice images but I wouldn't exhibit a tree with any of those. They are just too loud, and too colorful and leave nothing to the imagination."

Unfortunately, we Americans get kind of labled like this:eek:, maybe it's our destiny for western style.
 

rockm

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The artists in the links are Japanese--that's why they're kind of interesting in context of this discussion. They're bridged the gap betwen cultures pretty well without compromising the aesthetic of either.

Chiura Obata was a Japanese immigrant who was interred in the Topaz, Utah "relocation camp" during WWII.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiura_Obata

Hiroshi Yoshida was Japanese born in the late 1800s.
 

Attila Soos

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What I find novel in Walter's art exhibit, is that it challenges the whole concept of displaying bonsai in an alcove. Instead, it puts bonsai in the category of pure sculptures. This is a subtle shift, but a very radical one.
 

rockm

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Bonsai ARE NOT SCULPTURE, no matter how badly we want them to be or compare them to sculpture. They are living trees and pulling them out of that context and cubby holing them neatly with sculpture neuters them-making them more objects of kitsch.

It may be a shift, but it's not a good one, IMO. It's a bit desperate...
 

ghues

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Great Idea -

Hey Ms Vic,
I too have been thinking about and contemplating the subject………especially around your ideas of “Indigenous landscapes/things/vegetation being acceptable”.

My idea wouldn’t be “western way” per se but would be a more focused attempt at a regional theme…….for us this would be a “Pacific North West” (PNW) theme. This concept would/could apply to all regions – each working with their own cultural landscapes and differences.

Like Cbobgo (Bob)– said “we have no deep cultural well to draw from in regards to Western bonsai”.
Whereas the Japanese and Chinese methods are based on thousands of years of tradition(s)……but not so much for us westerners.

However, what I’ve been contemplating is that I’d draw upon the PNW first nation’s cultural “well” as they have some very interesting concepts and legends about our forests/fauna and this is dramatically displayed in their art which takes on many different forms. So the total display would exhibit “local ingredients”, the tree, perhaps instead of a stand I’d have a natural driftwood stump or root wad, instead of an accent plant I’d have a small piece of driftwood or a local stone……or any combination thereof.

For Indigenous peoples (First Nations) inspiration I’d look to the works from Roy Henry Vickers or his brother Arthur or even the more contemporary art of Sue Coleman. Or…….. even though Roy and Arthur could be considered local = living on Vancouver Island....I could seek out our more local artists (from Cambell River or surrounding area) and use a simple mask, painting, paddle or carving… etc.

I also really like your idea; “a painting of a west coast beach bluff” –and for me there is no finer artist that captures that like Carol Evens (Google her you’ll be amazed -see attached picture...is that a windswept Douglas Fir?)

Further more, instead of a scroll I envision something more on the lines of Bill S's thread example which I believe is a first nations “dream catcher” creation.
I might consider using similar concepts of a traditional display; scroll, stand, accent plant …..etc however I’d try other combinations of things to capture the essence and/or message.

In the garden I have traditional monkey poles, benches etc but I like using sections of local tree logs, log slabs, burl slabs, driftwood pieces and even tried a tree of an old washed up stump (with a very interesting root wad still attached) and they all look better to me :) lol.
 

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Smoke

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Bonsai ARE NOT SCULPTURE, no matter how badly we want them to be or compare them to sculpture. They are living trees and pulling them out of that context and cubby holing them neatly with sculpture neuters them-making them more objects of kitsch.

It may be a shift, but it's not a good one, IMO. It's a bit desperate...

Agreed.


That is why I started the other thread. To define what display is to people. True bonsai display is not about the tree. It is more about the story telling components. The scroll and the accent piece be that flower, plant or stone. Trees play such a minor role.
 

Attila Soos

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Bonsai ARE NOT SCULPTURE, no matter how badly we want them to be or compare them to sculpture. They are living trees and pulling them out of that context and cubby holing them neatly with sculpture neuters them-making them more objects of kitsch.

It may be a shift, but it's not a good one, IMO. It's a bit desperate...

You are right in that traditional bonsai is not sculpture.

But that doesn't mean that we cannot explore this art form in a different context, such as looking at them as sculptures. Who is to say that we can't? I don't see why we should not explore new ways of looking at trees.

Do you see something wrong with Walter's exhibit? Do you think that the Western audience will have something against it, because the Tokonoma is missing?
I look at those pictures, and I like what I see. Is that wrong?
These are valid questions.

I say that we should explore every possible way of exhibiting them.
 

Attila Soos

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Agreed.


That is why I started the other thread. To define what display is to people. True bonsai display is not about the tree. It is more about the story telling components. The scroll and the accent piece be that flower, plant or stone. Trees play such a minor role.

This is one way to look at it.
But it is not the only way.

What is you want to create something that IS about the tree? What if you don't want a scroll?
What if you put a great tree on a pedestal and it stops people on their tracks, because they love it. Are you going to tell them that they are wrong, and they should know better? You can try, but it's not going to change anything. As an artist, you experiment, and then observe people's reaction. It's a learning process, and it's fun.
 
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Attila Soos

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There is a modern art gallery next door to my office, and sometimes I stop by at lunch. I had some great conversation with the curator.

One day I asked her: "how am I supposed to look at these combinations of sculptures, pictures, installations?" "Do I really need to figure out what the artist intended to communicate?" "What if I can't figure it out?"

"No, no", she laughed. "You are free to have your personal thoughts about what you see. You are free to associate freely, and make up your own story about what you see". "The artist operates on a much more intuitive level, most of the time he could and would not explain why and how he did his creation". "Also, an artist can see his own work in different light, day after day".

In the West, most people regard bonsai as an art form. Their interpretation is very different from those who look at bonsai from a traditional perspective. This is why they will not, and cannot accept that there is only one "right way" to display bonsai. As much as I love bonsai in a traditional setting, I am sure that if bonsai becomes part of the Western culture and art scene, the traditional display will be no more than a niche in the big picture. It is a fact of life, and I don't have the urge to resist it. It is a waste of time.
 
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rockm

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Attila,

I posted my feelings about Walter's display in another thread, but in a nutshell, it basically turned me off. It reminded me of "2001--a space oddessy"

I agree we should explore all possible options. Nothing wrong with experimentation. My issue is that the western notion of display that's apparently in vogue these days is to simply replace Western ideas for Asian. I see simple rejection of Japanese techniques simply because "no one in the West has a tokoname." That's silly in my opinion (and my opinion is worth what you paid for it :D).

Japanese display is effective because the visual sensibilities that underlie it are artistically solid. Remove the obscure (to us) meaning of scroll subjects and some other stuff and you're left with a dynamic-big object, background supporting object and smaller foreground object that form a visually cohesive whole.

Walters display uses a mass of trees --which deemphasizes the individual subjects--which are pretty spectacular in themselves. The trees are placed in an open space that also minimizes them. They're placed on modern sterile looking stands. Sure, it may be "modern" "western" display, but it's pretty cold to me. It's not bonsai, it's modern art, which is notorious for putting style before substance...

Of course, this is all about individual taste. It's subjective, so what appeals to one, may not appeal to others. I don't think rejecting display methods and concepts simply because they're Japanese is a smart path to follow. Walter is a pioneer, but seems to have an axe to grind when it comes to "Japanese" bonsai. He sees stale ideas and concepts in Japanese bonsai. I tend to agree with some of that, but it can be taken too far.

For me, a merging of western concepts and Japanese aesthetics works in display-and in art and architecture. There is a lot of precedent in this. Frank Lloyd Wright understood how to adapt Asian concepts into design, as did Monet, Renoir and other impressionist painters. Western art also profoundly influenced Japanese art in the last 100 years. This melding of ideas can produce some moving art...
 

Attila Soos

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You are making some very good points.

I am not for rejecting anything at all. Doing something just in spite of something else, is not the right attitude. Rather, I would like to see Westerners make do with what they have available. A three point display, where any objects are used (not necessarily scrolls) that complement the tree, is always a good option. And, instead of a Tokonoma, any space can do, where the bonsai can take an unintruded, uncluttered, center stage.

You hit the nail right in the head, in mentioning modern art. I want to see bonsai being used as modern art. Initially, it may be less attractive than a traditional display. It may look rather crude, tentative, experimental. But this is the only way that bonsai can break out of its comfortable mold that is in right now. I want to see bonsai being used in all kinds of different contexts. Some will work, some won't. The thing with modern art is that you have much more freedom to create interesting works, but you have many more chances to create bad works as well. So, there is a price to pay for all that freedom. But at least you create an enviroment that is not stale anymore.

If you visit art galleries today, there is nothing except modern art. If you crave for good old fashioned story telling in art, you have to go to museums. In the old days, the artist had a story to tell, and communicated to you in no uncertain terms. You see the nativity scenes in the Italian Renaissance paintings, or the Ascension of Christ, and you know exactly what the artist wants you to see. It's the same story with the Impressionists, the story is no less clear, only the style changed.
I see traditional bonsai display as a parallel phenomenon to the old fashioned art.

Fast forward to our days, and the works become much more complex. You have to use your imagination more, and you have much more freedom to interpret things. If bonsai is to be accepted as art, the context in which it is displayed, cannot be stuck in the middle ages. As much as we enjoy that context. The artist has to have the freedom to use it in any context, even if we are not always comfortable with the result.

Your critique of Walter's display is from the perspective of traditional bonsai. So, it is not really a valid critique, from an astistic perspective. Instead of what the display does NOT have, you should look at what DOES have. Instead of the feelings thad does not express, what about the feelings that does evoke.

You've said it all: "it is not bonsai, it is modern art to me." This is the whole point: there is no other art today, BUT modern art. As a craft, bonsai can stay where it was for hundreds of years. As art, it cannot. We cannot have it both ways.

I love old fashioned stories and I couldn't live without them. But art is also about breaking boundaries. It takes courage to do that, people say. What do we need the courage for? We need the courage to handle failure, skepticism, and the courage to operate out of our comfort zone.

Of course, there is nothing wrong with being a good craftsman, and carve different versions of the same totem pole, day after day. It is a decent way to make a living, and it gives you a warm and comfortable feeling.
 
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Yamadori

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I love old fashioned stories and I couldn't live without them. But art is also about breaking boundaries. It takes courage to do that, people say. What do we need the courage for? We need the courage to handle failure, skepticism, and the courage to operate out of our comfort zone.

What do we need the courage for? Withstanding flame wars from folks who can be hostily intollerant of out-of-the-box approaches. Really there is room for us all. I deeply love keido. It is profound when it is done right. I also enjoy modern boundry breaking display. I won't let others define for me if it is right or wrong, art or not. That is my personal decision. Lets all just allow experimentation and enjoy different approaches to celebrating our common love of bonsai.
 

mcpesq817

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I do have to say that this has been a very interesting discussion. I'm still very much of a novice at bonsai, so I have been focusing on learning how to work on trees, rather than on the elements of display. I figured that a lot of thought went into preparing displays, but Vic's posts really gave me perspective on how much thought goes into projecting the feeling that an artist is trying to project (sorry, I'm more a math and science guy, and have always been a little dense when it comes to art).

In any event, Vic's winter image to me suggested a little more Western feel with the mittens and the snow angel - picturing that display in my mind brought a big smile to my face. :)
 

Attila Soos

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It's interesting how we use the terms Western feel and Eastern feel, in our discussions.
Have you really thought about what exactly that means? (I am not picking on anyone here, I am just exploring the complex meaning of these terms).

It is noteworthy to mention that when walk around these modern-art galleries close to my office, I don't feel that any of the works have an Eastern feel, or Western feel, for that matter. In spite of the fact that some of the artists are from the East, others from the West. The reason for lack of such a distinct geographical "feel" is that the work of art does not follow any preconceive idea that would enable us to pigeonhole it into such a category. The works are original, as they should be.

I suggest that once in a while we should try to create a display that feels familiar to us, instead of having a distinct feel of strange cultures. If we can create displays that fit right into our backyard, or home, without having to create an "Asian quarter", that's when people will feel truely comfortable with bonsai.
 

rockm

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"Your critique of Walter's display is from the perspective of traditional bonsai. So, it is not really a valid critique, from an astistic perspective.'

This is kind of what can get under my skin when the subject of art comes up.:D:rolleyes: Now, don't get me wrong, I understand where you're coming from, but this is a slippery escape route for modern art types:D:D I mean, didn't you just argue that modern art is so much free and open to interpretation? If that's so, then how can ANY critique of it be invalid? Are the only invalid perspectives those that don't jibe with the modern artist?

THat's what is so frustrating and admittedly appealing, about modern art. It is so free as to be very squishy and hard to hold onto. I get the "you just can't grasp it because you're a fuddy duddy, uncool, old fart" argument when I talk about artistic stuff with some people. I may be all of that, but, hey, I took Art 101-405 at a four year accredited college. Granted, it was a state school and I spent most of my time there extremely hung over, but I did get a passing understanding of how this stuff works...:D:D

THe issue for me is that most of the "western" attempts at bonsai display come off as desperate at best and at worst precious or self-important. The drive to BE WESTERN screams from many of the big time displays. It's no longer about the natural world. The trees become merely props to "say" something which is usually pretty vague...

'scuse me while I stumble off my soapbox in search of another beer...:D
 
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