What are the best ways to create sustainable conditions in which bonsai trees will thrive?

[Deep Sea Diver]

Recently I was at risk of hijacking a thread on “What’s the best fertilizer?” it seemed to me that was yet another one of those discussions where no one will sail away with a totally convincing argument for one of the other type of fertilizer. There simply can’t be and I believe there is a reason for this…

From my perspective, there is a use for each type of fertilizer when growing bonsai, particularly when one considers the different emphasizes needed to grow out stock, bonsai in development and bonsai in refinement, let alone the thought of where the tree is located, what tree(s) are we talking about, what’s the media and environment inside and outside the pot…and the depth/type of the pot.

There is no exact answer. There does seem to be lots of different rationales for what folks think is “best“ though….

The whole point, IMHO, centers on the question , “What are the best ways to create sustainable conditions in which bonsai trees will thrive?”

I‘ve spent a good deal of time studying plants in pots from the PAC Bonsai Museum, Elandan Gardens, nurseries and everywhere else I can get to. Folks who know can make trees grow. Yet are these really healthy? To me the real salient question is, “What are all the key elements needed to make a tree robust and resilient so it can withstand the rigors of living in a pot?”

@Walter Pall actually took a stab at this by putting forth what I call the Walter Paul Triangle…. In this discussion he discussed the interconnection between Media, Fertilizer and Watering. That is a good starting point to answer this key question….

In my backyard it seems the trees with the most robust growth and are the most resilient to latest vagaries of the weather gods are those that have a healthy ecosystem in the pots… what that looks like depends on a lot of things.

So I would put forth that in this thread all replies should honestly attempt to provide answers the elements of this question…. Which I hope will help many of use move our bonsai thinking forward a notch…

1. “Which of these trees, in your opinion actually appears to be in a sustainable condition?….

2. ”Why is this so?” and finally,

3. “How, in your opinion, does one create the conditions to get their trees to this level of sustainability?”

No off handed replies folks, or snarky comments please. This is a serious question.

New folks are most welcome to participate.

You can answer all questions about one, two, three or all four of the examples below. These are not a trick questions.

A. Japanese Red Pine


B. Paul’s Scarlet Hawthorne


C. Satsuki azalea


D. Juniper Raft


cheers
DSD sends

 

[BobbyLane]

Apologies if my answer is very basic. Light, water, air...I didnt say food, because I know they can thrive with the first 3.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Thanks…it’s a good start….

….Which specific tree(s) do you think is/are showing the most sustainable growing conditions… and what are the reasons this might be so?

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[BobbyLane]

My elm, its just what elms do i guess. you give them water, light, air and they grow, add feed and they explode. apologies if you were looking for a more scientific approach, i just like to keep bonsai as simple as possible

carry on without me

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

1) the red pine.

2) Because it appears to live in a thriving biome. The soil is housing multiple plants and moss and the tree seems in good health an vigorous. This means it's integrated in a 'system' instead of placed in just a medium and a container.

3) by taking care of the system as a whole, the combination of various elements in the soil, water and environment and making those work in each others favor.
One of my junipers is a good example: it's one ugly thing, but I like it. All check marks were hit: good air flow on the foliage and the soil, good soil medium, moss growth, but it just wouldn't grow this year on the bench. When I put it on the ground on one of my moss trays it filled out in days, it produced more growth in a single week than it had done in the past year. Turns out the spot on the bench was just too dry for it. It persisted, it lived and it was healthy, but it wasn't thriving until I upped the environment quality. The system as a whole was missing a piece and now it's complete.
I'm not trying to figure out if there are some cheap herbs I can keep in pots around my other trees, to mimic the effect of the undergrowth humidity.

 

[Glaucus]

1. The pine and the azalea are definitely in a good condition. I assume that would also be 'sustainable'.
Not sure about the Juniper and the Hawthorne. Less experience with these species. I don't see clear signs of excellent health. But it may be my untrained eye. Or it may be the state of those trees in their cycle of training that they are at a point where they grow less.

2. Both the pine and the azalea have long shoots of fresh and healthy new growth all over the plant/tree. That is why I conclude they are doing well.

3. To me, plants that do well are those that are have always been that way. They have always had healthy growth, no damage, no shock effect. Once you lose that., it seems it takes years to get it back. I would be very interested in several year progressions of a tree that is not doing well, and what happens to it to make it recover.
Of course, plants can recover. But to me plants that do really well do so because they had several years before it where they were also doing pretty good. And that acts like a positive feedback loop, until the tree runs out of space for roots. And once a plant does badly, it is not the condition, watering regime, substrate/soil, sun or fertilizer that can resolve this.
It just takes time for the internal damage to be repaired, sugar reserves to be reestablished, and some kind of possible hormonal shock to clear. I wonder how well this is understood by science.

I get the feeling though that where you want to go is the moss that covers the substrate layer. The pine and azalea both have these. While the juniper and the hawthorn both have kinda exposed roots, growing in sterile substrate and with algae growing on the base of the trunk.

There could definitely be a correlation between moss growing in a pot and the health of the plant. But that is not necessarily causation.
Additionally, determining which bonsai have a 'healthy ecosystem' inside their pot seems a bit tricky. How do you measure that?
Would a moss or soil transplant from the healthy plant to the unhealthy be beneficial to the unhealthy one?

I recently also watched back the Walter Pall talk on substrate, fertilizer, and watering. Seems very logical Walter's conclusion that it is easiest to grow a plant in substrate, and then provide plenty of both fertilizer and water. However, if bonsai do best with an ecosystem of soil bacteria, mycorrhiza and moss, wouldn't we preferably grow bonsai in soil, not substrate? And as another counter, many plants do well in completely sterile substrate or even hydroponics.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Funny you should say that. @Wires_Guy_wires

The tiny chain succulent growing on this pot came with it. The trees was originally owned by a Japanese American architect who passed away 5 years ago. His trees were dying due to media, pot and neglect issues.

I was also wondering about the pot size/depth helping. I also drilled the rootball gently. The new part of the media is APL with extra biochar.

Here’s the other of his trees a JBP.. Both 3 years after acquisition.. treated the same way.



Cheers
DSD sends

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

DSD- The pine and the azalea are definitely in a good condition. I assume that would also be 'sustainable'.

G- Not sure about the Juniper and the Hawthorne. Less experience with these species. I don't see clear signs of excellent health.

DSD- The Juniper was repotted early this year and cut back 50% foliage and branches for first styling in May. It’s foliage has increase about 70% since. It is the thinnest pot we have… still needs constant watering. I raised the media level 30 days ago and the tree launched into vigorous growth… but that coincided with a series of hot days… so no attribution to the media.

The Hawthorne was repotted with the Juniper in Feb and just cut back for cuttings. Extensions were 3-6” (or 12 of these).

The growth of these seems to be held up by their fertilization/watering and placement more then a media basis.. Both are/were strong trees.

G- To me, plants that do well are those that are have always been that way. They have always had healthy growth, no damage, no shock effect. Once you lose that., it seems it takes years to get it back.

DSD - ….This is part of what I am thinking about. Although my trees have only stalled for 3-6 months at most…rarely die, but that can happen.


G- I get the feeling though that where you want to go is the moss that covers the substrate layer. The pine and azalea both have these.

DSD- That wasn’t part of my motivation/thought process when I wrote this thread. A lot of ideas were floating around in my mind when I wrote this. So the Moss hypothesis is coincidental.

I’m thinking more along the lines of gathering thoughts and information from other bonsai practitioners.

G-….determining which bonsai have a 'healthy ecosystem' inside their pot seems a bit tricky. How do you measure that?

DSD - Over time, with enough experience, I believe most folks can recognize a healthy, robust tree…. the end result.

It’s the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle that make up a sustainable environment that produce a robust, resilient bonsai tree in a pot that interest me most.

G- Would a moss or soil transplant from the healthy plant to the unhealthy be beneficial to the unhealthy one?

DSD- Good question. Anyone got an answer to this?

G-I recently also watched back the Walter Pall talk on substrate, fertilizer, and watering. Seems very logical Walter's conclusion that it is easiest to grow a plant in substrate, and then provide plenty of both fertilizer and water.

DSD - I wrote to Walter awhile back… it seems his thoughts are evolving. His former Intern Jennifer Price told our club he is even trying akadama in some trees….

G - However, if bonsai do best with an ecosystem of soil bacteria, mycorrhiza and moss, wouldn't we preferably grow bonsai in soil, not substrate?

DSD- Not sure they do for sure. It is an intriguing thought. Yet might require folks changing to deeper pots, providing diversity in the form of a variety of shallow rooted plants/moss etc systematically adding supplements upon/after potting like perhaps biochar, humic/fulvic acid/kelp…or not… use thicker pots better drainage… less or different fungicide/insecticide etc. Just a couple ideas for folks to think about.

The discipline requires a tree to live in a pot…I believe there is a good deal of evidence existing that garden soil is inferior for this purpose….

So some pie in the sky ideas. I know different trees/climates etc may require an adjustment to this central theme, yet times are a changing and so is the climate.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[Emanon]

“What are the best ways to create sustainable conditions in which bonsai trees will thrive?”

[...] Elandan Gardens [...] [A]re these really healthy?

Some time ago I heard a rumor (or report) that Dan Robinson never repots any of his trees...trees that have been in the same pot for 30, 40, 50+ years. I've never been Elandan Gardens but from the pictures online, and in his book, his trees all look very healthy. When deciding whether to repot a tree or not I have this information in the back of my mind and I usually end up leaving the tree unrepotted for another year. Is there any truth to this rumor? If so, and since you've been there, how do the trees look? Does he have to do something to compensate for the fact that he doesn't repot? Is this an underutilized hack?

 

[Joe Dupre']

My advice is to stop seeking the "best" and go with "very good". Get very good soil, water, sun orientation and then watch how the tree responds. Ask other bonsai growers in your area. Look at the trees. Join a local club. Look at the trees. You or I or the experts don't know what your tree needs in your particular environment..................but the tree knows. IT has the final say.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Dan believes that all trees deserve to be gnarly and ancient looking. One of the ways Dan accomplishes this is to not repot his trees. He uses a 1:1:1 bark, pumice and lava, if I recall correctly, and only fertilizes with Miracle gro.

Some of his trees have been in the pot over 35 years.

Here are a couple of his trees.
. . . . .

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[Joe Dupre']

Dan believes that all trees deserve to be gnarly and ancient looking. One of the ways Dan accomplishes this is to not repot his trees. He uses a 1:1:1 bark, pumice and lava, if I recall correctly, and only fertilizes with Miracle gro.

Here are a couple of his trees.
View attachment 451325. View attachment 451326. View attachment 451327. View attachment 451328. View attachment 451329.

Cheers
DSD sends

I gathered from looking at Dan's videos that the tree stabilizes to the pot it's in and the growth slows way down. I would imagine it is similar to a mountain juniper that only has its particular crevice to live in and grows accordingly. I saw a We are the Bonsai Supply video where he was working on a normally fast-growing ficus that was in the same pot for over 20 years. It seemed to have fared pretty well.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

My advice is to stop seeking the "best" and go with "very good". Look at the trees. You or I or the experts don't know what your tree needs in your particular environment..................but the tree knows. IT has the final say.

Good thoughts. I guess I’d wonder how one would describe the individual elements one is doing while ‘listening to your tree’ so it eventually becomes robust and resilient?

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[Joe Dupre']

Good thoughts. I guess I’d wonder how one would describe the individual elements one is doing while ‘listening to your tree’ so it eventually becomes robust and resilient?

Cheers
DSD sends

Are the leaves the right color and vibrant? Is the tree pushing new growth in its active growing season? Is the soil moist enough?

Color: look online for a healthy example of your tree.

Growth: Is new growth emerging when it should? If not ......... STOP ...... and find out why. Read, ask, plead.....do whatever it takes to solve this one.

Moisture: It's a subjective thing you HAVE to learn for each species and probably each individual tree. A good gauge: wet a sponge and wring it out as dry as you can. Wrap the sponge in a towel and pat it a couple of times. That should be about as dry as you want the soil to be ......on average. Bald cypress wants to be SOGGY. Conifers prefer just either side of the sponge gauge.

Trees are unlike dogs that will tell you when it's time to eat or drink. They will silently die if not attended to. So, look at your trees EVERY DAY. They may not need water or pruning, but you'll get a sense of how well they are growing.

 

[Scorpius]

Gas exchange in the substrate is an area I see not discussed a lot. If you don't get that right nothing else matters.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Some more good elements! Now we are defining the example of ‘the tree will tell you’ a couple steps further.

I was just thinking while looking at my trees….aren’t there are other basic elements a tree might not be able to tell a caregiver that might or might not help a tree along the way to becoming robust and resilient?

…. media composition and grain size ( @Scorpius ), fertilization amount, use of moss/succulents or other plants, pot size/depth/thickness of the walls/drainage holes, wintering over technique… placement…etc

Not to mention event major triggers the tree may or may not be able to tell its caregiver - distress, like overheating or disease, needs or can take more fertilizer, signs the tree is ready for work or repotting sign…. etc.

…. and other elements a tree might not need, yet are done anyways?

…. some signs that come after an event…

Just some thoughts before watering….

cheers
DSD sends

 

[Joe Dupre']

You might be overthinking this. Good, solid soil, a decent sized pot, water, a little of almost any fertilizer and light. These will get you by with almost all trees. I'll repeat. Nobody really knows what every tree needs at every stage in every environment at every time of the year. If someone says they do.............RUN! Bonsai is not , and will never be, an exact science.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

. Perhaps four years ago I might have agreed with you.

In the intervening years I’ve been a volunteer at PB Museum and studying trees systematically ever since. From my experiences now I realize just tossing things together will not reliably develop or maintain robust and resilient trees.

These are folks that strive to reliably do just what you state isn’t possible.

So answering this question reliably becomes somewhat more important to me nowadays.

cheers
DSD sends

 

[19Mateo83]

There is one critical element that cannot be seen in the pictures and plays a very critical role in the success of a tree. That is proper climate. If the climate matches what the tree requires it helps it survive in not so optimal conditions. Think of the giant coast redwoods. They flourish where they do because of the climate, the soil, the humidity and fog and all the other conditions that come together to make these trees grow giant. Take the trees that grow in a tiny pocket of soil on Rocky outcrops, with one root in the ground hanging on for dear life. If any one thing was changed about it’s climate it would surely perish. Our little trees in pots as basically growing in their own little pocket of soil, all that’s missing is the mountain top. We strive to emulate every possible aspect of the “perfect” balanced growing environment, water, food, soil, gas exchange…. But individual climate requirements play more of a role in the homeostasis of bonsai than some give credit to. Some species will never be successful long term in pots because we cannot provide the optimal climate that the species requires.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

That’s a good point.

Climate might be considered a “Meta” element. Almost a consideration just to get a tree into the gate to one’s property.

It’s a more variable then one might think, after all there are redwoods on the street in NYC.

More directly to the point, Ryan Neal has been working to push the limit on climate constraints…. for example determining the key times to do specific activities to Mountain Hemlocks so these trees can thrive in areas folks never thought they’d be able to live previously.

Referring back to the thread title, I’m reminded the goal is to look at “best ways to create sustainable conditions in which bonsai trees will thrive.

At this point the discussion has turned to focus on what elements are needed to for bonsai trees to thrive.

I think it’s worth trying to refocus the thread back to ways of creating sustainable conditions for bonsai trees to thrive in…

Cheers
DSD sends