What cases / when is it right, aesthetically-speaking, to ignore the rule of "angle the tree toward the viewer"?

rockm

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Do you agree with the statement I made or not? I could careless about what show these trees display at. Just because the Japanese did it that way, doesn't mean everyone have to blindly follow it without asking questions. We have eyes and brain so we can see and decide what is better.... Don't ask me to show my trees. You don't need to have any tree to see how silly these look.

"Don't ask me to show my trees. You don't need to have any tree to see how silly these look"

Well, um, seeing your actual work would put some perspective on what you're talking about. Particularly when it comes to your criticism of rote blind following of masters...Let's see what YOU have done. Money talks, Bullshit walks.
 
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"Don't ask me to show my trees. You don't need to have any tree to see how silly these look"

Well, um, seeing your actual work would put some perspective on what you're talking about. Particularly when it comes to your criticism of rote blind following of masters...Let's see what YOU have done. Money talks, Bullshit walks.
I don't spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on trees so I don't have anything as special at yours. What I can tell you is what I have won't be looking silly from the sides or back.
I want to add that my do NOT go to Big Show like Bolero!
 
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rockm

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I don't spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on trees so I don't have anything as special at yours. What I can tell you is what I have won't be looking silly from the sides or back.
Yeah, "won't" is quite a tell...
 

rockm

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And for clarity, by "money talks" I mean "show us an ACTUAL tree you've worked on"--ANY tree-- from $15 mallsai to whatever. I well understand that great bonsai come from all kinds of sources, and one doesn't have to spend hundreds or, Jesus--thousands to make a great one. JUST SHOW US A TREE you've worked on.
 

rockm

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“I sometimes don’t follow my own advice.”

That is funny and profound at the same time. And honest.
I am pretty far from profound. Like Yogi Berra might have said "SOMETIMES a broken clock is right twice a day"
 

bonsaichile

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I've seen your previous posts on this subject and IMHO, they seem to come from a position of ignorance. You also seem to like to make a lot of assumptions about other posters.
Have you ever been to a national level bonsai show and seen some of these trees in person? Have you walked down the aisles and seen how ridiculous some of them look
from anything other than that narrowly defined "front"? I've been to 5 of the 6 national shows, have been on the set up and photo crews...I've seen these kinds of trees up close and personal.

Tell us about your background and bonsai experience - if you dare.
Like the assumptions you are making about me? Pfff.. snowflake
 

coh

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Like the assumptions you are making about me? Pfff.. snowflake
Took you two days to come up with that reply? LOL. Good work ;)

I didn't make any assumptions, I asked you to tell me about your bonsai experience. Which you still haven't. I wonder why...
 

0soyoung

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My favorite Yogi Berra quote - “If you don’t think so good, try not to think so much”
I have a hard time deciding whether,
If you come to a fork in the road, take it.
or
It is hard to make predictions, especially about the furture.
are my fav's (perhaps I paraphrase and am not accurately citing what he said; perhaps these aren't his words at all, but they are definitely Yogi-isms).

I prized my Yogi Berra bat when I was a kid.
Played catcher for consistency emulating my idol.
What a philosopher he was. :D:D:cool::cool::cool:

What kind of bonsai would he have made, if ... ?
 

Adair M

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Ok, let’s get the thread back on track...

I was unaware of the forward lean think for a long time. I was totally unaware that the trees I admired in photographs leaned forward, especially to the degree that they do. Once I started emulating this technique, my trees began improving. By leaps and bounds. So, I’m a fan of it.

If you can make a tree without it leaning forward, and you think it looks good, more power to ya. Formal uprights, which includes broom style, should not have a lean.

Cascades are another special case, but with them, even the lowest drop branch should be coming towards the viewer, not away from the viewer.

So... next time you see a tree that you really like, take a minute to examine it from the side, if you can. I think you’ll find that it does in fact lean towards the front.
 

Adair M

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Here are some shots of this year’s Kokofu-ten during the set up process:

51220947-4869-41EE-A96C-0DCDF520142B.jpegD55F8AEB-B3BF-4D0F-B75B-36DEFC18B616.jpeg5606EE37-FE7F-4B91-8A8B-F19EFF76F0EB.jpeg8E335601-A6A2-4BE0-91C3-0A7D35B7597E.jpeg4EE79420-4BDF-4CF3-BF54-2AB67669FF31.jpeg

These shots, since they were taken down the aisle, show the sides of the trees.

And, from what I can see, they all seem to have a forward lean.
 

Adair M

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Here’s a triple trunk tree. Not very much forward lean, until the apex:

6462EF89-3E9C-44C3-B9F3-8D8C9341663B.jpeg

D8F72487-1ECA-4C11-A7AE-43248FD44476.jpeg

The left trunk moves forward. The back trunk, moves to the back. (Duh!) But not at a steep angle back. As upward as possible. It’s apex does move towards the back, so that it wouldnt be under the canopy of the tallest trunk.

The tall trunk wiggles a bit over both the other trunks (to show dominance, I guess) then tips the apex towards the front.
 

rockm

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Ran across this blog post from Bill Valavanis on his trip to this year's Kokufu Exhibition in Japan at the beginning of the month.

Scroll down to the "A Private Visit to Omiya Bonsai Village" and look about ten photos in for the photo of the trident in the "blue container" Also look at the trees on the benches overhead shots of the nursery--Notice anything familiar about many of them--FORWARD LEAN....
https://valavanisbonsaiblog.com/
 

Anthony

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Perhaps the idea is to look at your native trees and build
your designs off of them,
The Oriental view, you build on, but some form of informed
mental growth should take place.

Your own standards and perhaps a different way of seeing
that is neither a copy or a reaction.
An evolution.
Good Day
Anthony
 

Cajunrider

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Great thread guys. I've learned a lot from this discussion.
Btw the green island ficus on my desk got a work out because of the thread. :)
 
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