What constitutes a "species" in plants?

BrianBay9

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Due to my training, I'm more familiar with animal taxonomy than plant. For animals, a two species are generally recognized as separate species when the groups of animals cannot crossbreed to produce young that can then reproduce. The horse and donkey = mule is the most familiar example. But as I've explored more about California oaks it seems that species hybrids pop up all over the place that will then produce viable acorns. Are the experts just not as good at recognizing separate species? Is there a different definition for species in trees? What's the point of calling trees a species when the entire genus will merge into one group, given the chance?
 

Mikecheck123

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I don't think it's that different from animals. It's messy, but I think the main question remains: is there a distinct population that is sharing DNA? Or is there an isolated population that is not?

Hybrids make it really messy. The most popular street tree in the entire world (London plane) is a hybrid that can back-cross with either of its parent species.

Dark-eyed juncos are a prime example in the animal world. Despite geographic specificity and remarkably different plumage, science considers them a single species because of the sharing of genetic material between races.

Meanwhile, the canyon towhee of Arizona is visually indistinguishable from the California towhee of California. But they are considered separate species because they haven't shared DNA in thousands of years and are unlikely to do so.

Another example in the animal world is the mammal-eating transient orcas of the Pacific ocean and the fish-eating resident orcas of Puget Sound. Genetic testing reveals that they have not shared DNA in 100,000 years. Hasn't been called yet, but this is likely a speciation event that we're witnessing in real time.
 

Harunobu

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It is whatever the scientists who decide on it agree on. At some point, the argument becomes more one of convenience. Does splitting up a species into 20 subspecies make it easier or harder to discuss those species in your scientific articles?

From a purely scientific view, it doesn't make any sense to talk about species in the first place. Speciation is a gradual and continuous. Why take a snapshot today and then try to put everything into their own distinct box? Yes, it makes everything way way easier to talk about. Which is why that is an argument starts to sneak into every discussion about lumping or splitting.

In the end the way to try to scientifically define what should be a 'species', ie fertility, DNA exchange, population separation, distinctiveness, different behavior, all become arguments of convenience that give us the lumping and splitting that we think is most convenient.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Species was a concept that in a large part was first defined by the Carolus Linnaeus, in the 1700's. This is way before the understanding of inheritance. Linnaeus had cats and dogs and such in mind. Genetics, in animals has little tolerance for hybridizing between different species. Reproductive isolation is the norm. When you get into plants, it all falls apart. If you read botanical taxonomy, the whole "reproductive isolation" aspect of mammalian concept of species completely breaks down. And botanists are arguing about it constantly. The definition for plants, to the best of my knowledge is not significantly different from animals, with the recognition that natural interbreeding populations have a higher priority in defining species and reproductive isolation, as in a bear can not produce viable offspring with a moose, is a lower priority aspect of the definition in plants. In other words,

The fact that in captivity (on the farm or in the lab) 2 species of plants can produce viable hybrids is not important in the definition of species, what is important is whether the natural, undisturbed by humans, wild populations do not actually hybridize. So for example, genus Celtis, the hackberries, Celtis africanus and Celtis laevigata never cross breed in the wild. They exist on different continents, Africa and North America respectively. If one could force them to hybridize, this fact alone in botany does not negate their status as separate species.

Where as in oaks. Oaks in general hybridize easily. Quercus rubra - the northern red oak, and Quercus velutina, the eastern black oak, do in fact hybridize easily, and where their ranges overlap, there are all levels of intermediate forms. Here there is serious argument between different taxonomists as whether there are really 2 species or a single species. Along this line there is the concept of "super-species" where multiple species exist with overlapping ranges and freely hybridizing, whether this swarm constitutes separate species and associated hybrids or rather whether this should be treated as a single superspecies is an area of current debate. Similar with willows, Salix.

Botanical taxonomists spend a lot of time arguing with each other over what is a valid species and what is not. It simply is not "settled science". Very different than say the taxonomy of bird species. Where with birds, there are relatively few debates.

From Wikipedia:

In biology, a species is the basic unit of classification and a taxonomic rank of an organism, as well as a unit of biodiversity. A species is often defined as the largest group of organisms in which any two individuals of the appropriate sexes or mating types can produce fertile offspring, typically by sexual reproduction. Other ways of defining species include their karyotype, DNA sequence, morphology, behaviour or ecological niche. In addition, paleontologists use the concept of the chronospecies since fossil reproduction cannot be examined.

 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Funny, I mentioned relatively few debates in birds, and @Mikecheck123 comes up with a couple debates or examples, in birds.

Birds have orders of magnitude fewer taxonomy problems than plants, due to reproductive isolation, and that there are orders of magnitude fewer species of birds total. Where plant species outnumber bird species by several orders of magnitude.
 

Bnana

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Aan important point is that species are an artificial concept. Organisms do not need to behave according to our rules.

The Wikipedia definition of often used but is old-fashioned. There are many species that can and sometimes do hybridise and the hybrid offspring is fertile (ducks for instance) however the two species do not merge into one homogeneous gene pool. Recognizing both as distinct species just makes more sense.
With plants this happens very often, hybrids occur but the parental lineages remain stable.
 

Mikecheck123

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Funny, I mentioned relatively few debates in birds, and @Mikecheck123 comes up with a couple debates or examples, in birds.

Birds have orders of magnitude fewer taxonomy problems than plants, due to reproductive isolation, and that there are orders of magnitude fewer species of birds total. Where plant species outnumber bird species by several orders of magnitude.
Yes. There are less than 20,000 species of birds in the entire world, no matter how you slice it.

But there are almost 200 different oak species in Mexico, to name just one random example.
 

Forsoothe!

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I think birders are splitters. One look in a bird ID handbook and you can see umpteen varieties of Sparrows, all of which look like the same picture from different angles.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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I think birders are splitters. One look in a bird ID handbook and you can see umpteen varieties of Sparrows, all of which look like the same picture from different angles.

one friend pointed out there are exactly 4 species of birds
little brown birds,
medium brown birds
big brown birds
big white birds

all birds fit in one of those 4 categories. Don't need to know more. -

My bird watcher's joke for the day.

yes, I'm joking
 

TN_Jim

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3E1AABE2-D3A7-42FF-B852-6FA5E06FEEE4.jpeg

The commonly accepted Biological Species Concept goes well beyond mules being sterile. A polar bear and grizzly bear can produce reproductively viable offspring, still distinct species. Isolation is just one of many factors that can determine species as distinct.
 

JoeR

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Species was a concept that in a large part was first defined by the Carolus Linnaeus, in the 1700's. This is way before the understanding of inheritance. Linnaeus had cats and dogs and such in mind. Genetics, in animals has little tolerance for hybridizing between different species. Reproductive isolation is the norm. When you get into plants, it all falls apart. If you read botanical taxonomy, the whole "reproductive isolation" aspect of mammalian concept of species completely breaks down. And botanists are arguing about it constantly. The definition for plants, to the best of my knowledge is not significantly different from animals, with the recognition that natural interbreeding populations have a higher priority in defining species and reproductive isolation, as in a bear can not produce viable offspring with a moose, is a lower priority aspect of the definition in plants. In other words,

The fact that in captivity (on the farm or in the lab) 2 species of plants can produce viable hybrids is not important in the definition of species, what is important is whether the natural, undisturbed by humans, wild populations do not actually hybridize. So for example, genus Celtis, the hackberries, Celtis africanus and Celtis laevigata never cross breed in the wild. They exist on different continents, Africa and North America respectively. If one could force them to hybridize, this fact alone in botany does not negate their status as separate species.

Where as in oaks. Oaks in general hybridize easily. Quercus rubra - the northern red oak, and Quercus velutina, the eastern black oak, do in fact hybridize easily, and where their ranges overlap, there are all levels of intermediate forms. Here there is serious argument between different taxonomists as whether there are really 2 species or a single species. Along this line there is the concept of "super-species" where multiple species exist with overlapping ranges and freely hybridizing, whether this swarm constitutes separate species and associated hybrids or rather whether this should be treated as a single superspecies is an area of current debate. Similar with willows, Salix.

Botanical taxonomists spend a lot of time arguing with each other over what is a valid species and what is not. It simply is not "settled science". Very different than say the taxonomy of bird species. Where with birds, there are relatively few debates.

From Wikipedia:

In biology, a species is the basic unit of classification and a taxonomic rank of an organism, as well as a unit of biodiversity. A species is often defined as the largest group of organisms in which any two individuals of the appropriate sexes or mating types can produce fertile offspring, typically by sexual reproduction. Other ways of defining species include their karyotype, DNA sequence, morphology, behaviour or ecological niche. In addition, paleontologists use the concept of the chronospecies since fossil reproduction cannot be examined.

Man something else about those damn ornithologists, they have a single accurate common name for each species, whereas in botany the same common name may apply to numerous unrelated genera. Wouldnt that be nice🙂
 

PiñonJ

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Where as in oaks. Oaks in general hybridize easily. Quercus rubra - the northern red oak, and Quercus velutina, the eastern black oak, do in fact hybridize easily, and where their ranges overlap, there are all levels of intermediate forms. Here there is serious argument between different taxonomists as whether there are really 2 species or a single species. Along this line there is the concept of "super-species" where multiple species exist with overlapping ranges and freely hybridizing, whether this swarm constitutes separate species and associated hybrids or rather whether this should be treated as a single superspecies is an area of current debate.
In my state, I believe there are seven species of scrub oak. Here in the north, the most common is Gambel Oak (Q. gambelii). It will hybridize readily with any of the other species and produce hybrids with slight distinctions, but all of which are called Wavyleaf Oak. Yet, even though they hybridize so easily and produce fertile offspring, I don’t believe they are converging on a common phenotype. Isn’t that good evidence that they are distinct species?
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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In my state, I believe there are seven species of scrub oak. Here in the north, the most common is Gambel Oak (Q. gambelii). It will hybridize readily with any of the other species and produce hybrids with slight distinctions, but all of which are called Wavyleaf Oak. Yet, even though they hybridize so easily and produce fertile offspring, I don’t believe they are converging on a common phenotype. Isn’t that good evidence that they are distinct species?
Or are they all a single species in the process of diverging into separate species? The fact they are interbreeding in the wild could be used to suggest that they are not separate species yet. Might be in the future?

I don't pretend to know.
 

BrianBay9

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In California, all the red oaks hybridize where they overlap. From a functional standpoint I'm no longer concerned about the name. If they act like a coast live oak then as far as I'm concerned they're a coast live oak. Ultimately we name them to know and describe how to care for them.
 
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