what does 'container grown' mean?

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This may turn out to be a very simple question, but I am struggling to find an answer.

1 - I have read here and elsewhere people say that a tree has been 'container grown' from seedling/cutting. (Just so we're all on the same page, I attached a photo of what i understand by 'seedling'. This one a 2-3 years old. this may be a wrong understanding of the term.)

Does this simply mean that the tree was never planter in the ground?

Or does this mean that tree spent its entire life in a shallow bonsai container (1-3" depth) and was never even placed in a larger container/pot (more like 5-10" depth)?

I may not even be asking the right questions! :confused:

2 - Regardless of the answer to the above, could anybody provide any insight about placing a young seedling in a shallow bonsai container for it's entire life? Would you plant a 2yr old seedling in an 18" x 1.5" shallow oval and leave it in there (replacing soil/working roots when necessary, of course). Would this naturally create an 'ebihara' root effect?

Thank you!
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Most of my plants are container grown but some do have their roots escape the pot and grow into the ground. Will post a few pics for you to see. These have been grown in pot since 2008. I occasionally lift them up and trim the roots. I haven't done that for a couple years. I plan to put them in shallow training pot this spring.IMG_20190101_092616.jpgIMG_20190101_092523.jpgIMG_20190101_092734.jpg
 
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Wilson

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Hey Derek, if you are ever out at Yves greenhouses in the winter, there are loads of great bonsai(all container grown). Many people up here have cultivated trees in pots/trays right from seed. It is just a different approach than accelerated ground growing. Are you just weighing your options for developing your maples?
 
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Hi @Wilson

Please let me be more specific: I am wondering whether it might be the case that when people go out of their way to specify "container grown" they might mean something significantly different from what a lot of people do, which is grow in containers... For example, I thought it might mean that people were planting a seedling (see attached example) into a shallow pot (see attached examples) at a very early stage and proceeded to grow the tree, in shallow pots, for decades. (The obvious advantage being that the roots are forced to grow in the direction/shape convenient for long term plans). Examples below.

I am asking because I ordered many young maple seedlings that i plan to grow out, and want to try a variety of methods. ultimately, I want the many of them to have sprawling bases, and I am thinking about how to achieve this. I am 30 years old now, and I am playing the long term game (to the point where I don't expect to have fully satisfyingly refined trees in my lifetime, i think).

best example:

If you look at the pictures, and @William N. Valavanis explanations, it seems like he put a very young tree directly into a shallow bonsai pot and grew it in a bonsai pot for 40 years.

it's unclear to me if Bill's explanations means that this process was an accident not to be repeated, or if it was an accident where Bill discovered a good idea to be repeated :)

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/acer-palmatum-shishigashira-design-questions.16127/#post-215866


other examples that come to mind:

post #26:
"a Deshojo Japanese maple, started from a cutting over 35 years ago and completely container grown"
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/japanese-maple-varieties.17449/page-2#post-234008

post #46 and 47:
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/best-original-authors-tree.24958/page-3#post-392491

post #70
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/share-your-literatis.36338/page-4#post-611846
 

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AlainK

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1/ Trees are grown in the ground to get them become bigger faster.
Pbs :
a) you can't control the roots. For some species that can be root-pruned drastically, or air-layered, this is not a major problem.
b) pruning the top hard can leave big scars. With proper techniques, this can be corrected for most species.

2/ Trees grown from seeds or seedlings, or cuttings, in a bonsai pot will have a good nebari from the start - if done properly;
Pbs :
a) it takes along time. better start before you're 65, don't smoke, don't drink, don't eat too much salt and meat, etc. I do, but I'm an optimist.
b) requires a very good warering system/schedule. I lost quite a few in shallow when on holidays.

3/ Grow-box :
Best option to fatten a tree.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Yes,
and yes.

Sorry, just poking a little fun.

Container grown only means it was not grown in the ground. It does not mean it was grown in a bonsai pot.

Should you plant a seedling or cutting in a shallow, wide bonsai pot? The answer is no, or rather this is the slowest route to a mature bonsai possible. 40 years minimum even in skilled hands.

Trees need to grow in order to have branches to choose from to do styling. If you confine the roots to a bonsai pot, the growth will slow, and in particular the trunk of the tree will slow or just about stop increasing in diameter. I kept a pomegranate its entire life in a bonsai pot. It started as a little cutting, maybe 1/16th inch diameter stem, at 35 years, when I got rid of it, it had a trunk barely 1 inch in diameter. To look good in the style it was in, it needed to have a 2 or 3 inch diameter trunk. Keeping a seedling in a bonsai pot will definitely slow the development of trunk caliper. Note, if I lived in a climate where I could have put the pomegranate in the ground, I could have had a 6 inch diameter trunk in less than 10 years. In the right climate, they grow fast.

However, container growing, while not as quick as ground growing, can very effectively size up trees for medium to smaller sizes of bonsai. Growing in containers makes it easier to set the tree on a work bench and do needed pruning and other adjustments as being developed. I weight near 300 pounds, there is no way I am flopping down on my belly to prune or wire trees growing in the ground. I'd never be able to get up. So container growing can and is done regularly, by many growers.

If you use containers that hold the equivalent of 3 to 5 gallon nursery cans of potting media, you can usually get enough growth that in less than 10 years, often less than 5 years you can get trunks in the 2 inch to 4 inch diameter range from a fair number of species. (note individual results depend on climate, and species). My favorite growing out container is a 16 x16 x 5 inch deep Anderson flat. It holds roughly the equivalent of 3 gallons of potting media. I rarely fill these Anderson flats to the 5 inch depth, I usually use them at about 3 to 4 inches deep, a little less media, and produces a shallower root system. I use them for individual trees, or when I am starting a batch of seedlings. 100 seedlings will need to be thinned to 25 the second year, so on.

Now it is important when starting with young stock, to not drastically over pot. You will need to step a seedling up into larger containers until you get to the largest container you want to use in your set up. It really doesn't matter if these pots are nursery pots or are fine bonsai containers, as long as they allow the roots room to grow. If you are careful to give roots room to spread, you can keep a young tree growing in bonsai pots the whole way. BUT if you let the tree get root bound, or if you prune too much off the root ball when you repot, you will slow the growth of your seedling. If you only prune downward growing roots, indeed this will mimic the Ebihara method. But you must make sure the tree has room to grow, or the trunk will not increase in diameter.

Note, my trees in 3 and 5 gallon nursery pots, and in Anderson flats, many are over 4 feet tall. Some have an individual branch over 6 feet long. My Amur maple, which I intend to eventually be shohin, less than 8 inches tall has spent much of the last 4 years with branches over 5 feet long in the effort to increase the diameter of the trunk. Bonsai trees at some point start out small, as a seedling or cutting or other propagated plant, then they grow, often are allowed to get quite large, then they are cut back and brought back down in size. Most bonsai that have made the 20 year old mark have spent near half their life at a size that is 5 to 20 times taller than they are when they are finally ready for exhibition. Grow up & out, then bring back down to size.

A few trees do continue to thicken up even in bonsai pots, even when the roots are kept fairly confined. These are the "exception" rather than the rule. The majority will be like my pomegranate, 35 years to get up to 1 inch in diameter. One that thickens up well in a pot is the azalea, Satsuki azalea will develop fairly well in bonsai pots.
 
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@Leo in N E Illinois wow, this is more than I could have ever hoped for! Thank you so so much!

I am left with no questions at all! Thank you! :)
 

MACH5

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There is something to be said about exclusively container grown trees turned bonsai. They have a special quality of their own. Probably the best example that comes to mind are Bill's trees. Most, if not all, spent their entire 40+ years growing in pots. Amazing when one thinks of the care, patience and skill it took. But it is s l o w !!!

In Japan, Mr. Urushibata at the famed Taisho-en nursery, grew all of his shohin maples in pots also for 30 to 40 years.



 

ysrgrathe

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IIRC Ebihara's famous trees were container grown over just 15-20 years. His techniques are probably beyond most of our skills though so it's realistic to expect it to take much longer.

@derek7745 one other thing I would add is that field grown trees often mean trees that still have field soil in their root system. The worst case is bagged & burlapped trees, which are 100% field soil PLUS are trees that have usually lost a majority of their root system when dug. Containerized trees, even when not grown for bonsai, are usually easier to transition to bonsai soil because they have compact root systems and medium that is easier to remove.
 

BonsaiNaga13

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Hi @Wilson

Please let me be more specific: I am wondering whether it might be the case that when people go out of their way to specify "container grown" they might mean something significantly different from what a lot of people do, which is grow in containers... For example, I thought it might mean that people were planting a seedling (see attached example) into a shallow pot (see attached examples) at a very early stage and proceeded to grow the tree, in shallow pots, for decades. (The obvious advantage being that the roots are forced to grow in the direction/shape convenient for long term plans). Examples below.

I am asking because I ordered many young maple seedlings that i plan to grow out, and want to try a variety of methods. ultimately, I want the many of them to have sprawling bases, and I am thinking about how to achieve this. I am 30 years old now, and I am playing the long term game (to the point where I don't expect to have fully satisfyingly refined trees in my lifetime, i think).

best example:

If you look at the pictures, and @William N. Valavanis explanations, it seems like he put a very young tree directly into a shallow bonsai pot and grew it in a bonsai pot for 40 years.

it's unclear to me if Bill's explanations means that this process was an accident not to be repeated, or if it was an accident where Bill discovered a good idea to be repeated :)

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/acer-palmatum-shishigashira-design-questions.16127/#post-215866


other examples that come to mind:

post #26:
"a Deshojo Japanese maple, started from a cutting over 35 years ago and completely container grown"
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/japanese-maple-varieties.17449/page-2#post-234008

post #46 and 47:
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/best-original-authors-tree.24958/page-3#post-392491

post #70
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/share-your-literatis.36338/page-4#post-611846
Container grown just means the tree spent the entirety of it's life in a container not specifying bonsai pot or nursery pot. If you want to develop a flat root base bulb pans are a good idea. Prune the tap root or anything downward growing and position the tree in the middle with the roots spreading outward.
 
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Probably the best example that comes to mind are Bill's trees. Most, if not all, spent their entire 40+ years growing in pots.

In Japan, Mr. Urushibata at the famed Taisho-en nursery, grew all of his shohin maples in pots also for 30 to 40 years.

Thanks @MACH5 -- can i ask, they would have used a variety of size pots like @Leo in N E Illinois described above, right? Successively larger pots, and then back to smaller pots?

Is it possible that the shohin trees you posted spent their entire lives in those exact pots (for example)?

@Smoke i have in my notes that you planted trees directly onto the bottom of the pot, instead of using a tile. can i ask if you were you doing this with very young trees, and what size pots you were using?

@Leo in N E Illinois have you tried putting very young trees in an anderson flat, and filling it only partially? My question is this: if i give the tree 'infinite' space to grow horizontally (for example, in a 36" x 36"x x 2"), will it thicken incredibly slow simply because it lacks a tap root?

attached photo (taken from here https://samedge.wordpress.com/2010/12/03/incredible-nebari/).

the soil line must have been just below where that first branch on the left is? If something forced all of the roots below the soil line to fuse and turn into a flared trunk, I guess my question is: is this more likely to happen (albeit very slowly) if the tree has no taproot and all energy must necessarily be spent in roots growing in the direction that ultimately form this flare? (assuming a tree with a taproot invests a lot in that taproot during the development stages?)
 

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Of course...some asshole somewhere will swear that earth is a "container"...blah blah blah....

Sorce
Yes but you must consider that that container, the Earth, has a height of +6000 km whereas the top soil of it (the regolith) averages only 15-16 m. Figure out that ratio. If you consider the area you’ll see that’s a super wide container ;) Plus it has a continuous warming mat.

Just kidding here
 
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Generally speaking, if you want to train a plant for bonsai to get a larger size a DEEPER pot and a coarse soil mix is best and will yield quicker results than keeping the tree in shallow pots.

If you are looking for developing a heavier lower trunk and surface roots, like in the maple photo, other techniques are necessary. Keeping the tree in a shallow, or deeper pot will NOT develop such a trunk formation. The roots must be trained. And, it also helps if a plant has roots all around the trunk. The roots must be worked and carefully trained.CARAPELLA MAPLE.JPG
CLEANING ROOTS.JPG
 

MACH5

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Thanks @MACH5 -- can i ask, they would have used a variety of size pots like @Leo in N E Illinois described above, right? Successively larger pots, and then back to smaller pots?

Is it possible that the shohin trees you posted spent their entire lives in those exact pots (for example)?


Derek very unlikely that those trees were grown in those small containers all their life. As you saw in Bill's response, as you container grow your trees, they are planted in larger pots for strong and vigorous growth. One big advantage of having trees grown in pots is that you don't end up with big scars. You are able to manage and monitor your tree much more closely. In the ground they can often "run away from you". When asked, Mr Urushibata said to me that he lets the growth extend and cuts back at the appropriate thickness to avoid big scars. This process is repeated many, many times over the years.

One side note I'd like to add. Planting a small tree in a huge pot is not better since soil will tend to stay too wet. Better to upgrade the sizes of the containers as the tree grows in size and thickness. Eventually the pot gets reduced back down to the appropriate size when the tree is "finished".
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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@derek7745
Tap roots, there's a lot of confusion about tap roots.

Generally a tap root is a trait of a seedling. It anchors a seedling down. Majority of tree species, by the time the seedling is 5 or so years old, one can not distinguish which root was the tap root. Majority of trees do not put extra energy into creating tap roots once older than the early seedling phase. Cut the taproot off, for most, the seedling grows without replacing it and grows just as fast as a uncut seedling confined to the same size pot. Forget about trees needing tap roots, they are not a concern in bonsai. You get rid of them early, they stay gone.

Exceptions: caudex forming trees, and pachycaul forming trees. The "gensing" ficus, and a few others ficus will form tuber like roots that function as storage organs. These are not tap roots, rather they are specialized structures. You can remove them, often the ficus just makes more.

Pachycaul trees have a layer of spongey tissue under the bark that stores water, baobabs and bursera (copal) and other desert trees tend to do this. Sometimes the spongey tissue will extend into the roots, again, these are not tap roots.

Maples do not need a taproot, will not replace the taproot once it is cut off the maple seedling.
 
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@MACH5 @Leo in N E Illinois thank you both so much!

I really appreciate everyone's patience with this!

really looking forward to the repotting and growing season!
 
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