What happens when dwarf JWP is grafted to Pinus strobiformis (SW White Pine)?

Japonicus

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I ordered 3 dwarf cultivars of JWP last week. Now I learn...
"The rootstock for most parvifloras is Pinus strobiformis (SW White Pine)."
(...at their nursery that is)

I'm just envisioning a larger and more noticeable union over time, but don't really know.
I understand it is typical to graft to JBP for the hobby.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Pinus strobiformis as roots stock is probably a better match for growth rate to JWP than JBP. At least that is my initial thought. I don't have hands on experience. Which nursery are you talking about?

Key is, JWP scion is winter hardy through zone 4. However, grafted JWP are only as hardy as the root stock they are grafted to. My biggest issue with JWP on JBP is that JBP is only hardy to zone 6. Grafting JWP to P. strobiliformis will result in a tree that is only as hardy as strobiliformis. Do you happen to know the hardiness of P. strobiliformis?

The 3rd item of interest is at what age will strobiliformis begin to form bark? One advantage to JBP is that they form rough bark fairly young. JWP is slow to form bark, 25 to 35 years to really get started. What age does strobiliformis begin to form bark.

In my opinion for peak winter hardiness the best understock for JWP would be Pinus strobus, it is hardy through all of zone 4, and it is very tolerant of winter and spring flooding. Wet soils are not an issue with P. strobus. Unfortunately nobody except W. Jupp was using strobus as understock and I believe he quit grafting for bonsai hobby nearly a decade ago.
 

Japonicus

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Pinus strobiformis as roots stock is probably a better match for growth rate to JWP than JBP. At least that is my initial thought. I don't have hands on experience. Which nursery are you talking about?

Key is, JWP scion is winter hardy through zone 4. However, grafted JWP are only as hardy as the root stock they are grafted to. My biggest issue with JWP on JBP is that JBP is only hardy to zone 6. Grafting JWP to P. strobiliformis will result in a tree that is only as hardy as strobiliformis. Do you happen to know the hardiness of P. strobiliformis?

The 3rd item of interest is at what age will strobiliformis begin to form bark? One advantage to JBP is that they form rough bark fairly young. JWP is slow to form bark, 25 to 35 years to really get started. What age does strobiliformis begin to form bark.

In my opinion for peak winter hardiness the best understock for JWP would be Pinus strobus, it is hardy through all of zone 4, and it is very tolerant of winter and spring flooding. Wet soils are not an issue with P. strobus. Unfortunately nobody except W. Jupp was using strobus as understock and I believe he quit grafting for bonsai hobby nearly a decade ago.
Thanks Leo. I hadn't even thought about its cold hardiness.
Oregon State edu here lists it at Zone 4. I would've thought that with its main distribution
found in Mexico, and the given name South Western, that it would be more like a zone 7 tree. Not so.

I ordered the 3 dwarfs from Oregon at Conifer Kingdom, and would think that a root stock that can reach 90' tall
and over 3' diameter, would have an awful looking union in a short time.
Hopefully my wiring goes better than the Aoba Jo JWP I got today.
 

Japonicus

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:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:
So now that I do a little digging, I have less a clue on the hardiness than before
One site Zone 4


One site Zones 5-9


Another one Zone 8!!!

(see dist. and ecology Zone 8 or -12.1º C, or 10º F)

Who do you believe? This seriously directs how I over Winter my new trees!
 

Potawatomi13

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The 3rd item of interest is at what age will strobiliformis begin to form bark? One advantage to JBP is that they form rough bark fairly young. JWP is slow to form bark, 25 to 35 years to really get started. What age does strobiliformis begin to form bark.
Seems JBP is a worse match with grossly dissimilar bark/heavier trunk at any but earliest stage of growth. White pine should have similar bark/much better match but better vigor from rootstock. Whether lower trunk thickness will mismatch from grafted stock remains to see?
 

Potawatomi13

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I ordered 3 dwarf cultivars of JWP last week. Now I learn...
"The rootstock for most parvifloras is Pinus strobiformis (SW White Pine)."
(...at their nursery that is)

I'm just envisioning a larger and more noticeable union over time, but don't really know.
I understand it is typical to graft to JBP for the hobby.

Research was inspired. Conifer Kingdom=ridiculous prices, will not allow to personally choose/pick up trees🧐. Pics of stock seem to show very messy high grafts. You may wish to return or plant in yard. Have sent inquiry and will post answers.
 

Japonicus

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Seems JBP is a worse match with grossly dissimilar bark/heavier trunk at any but earliest stage of growth.
Quite the opposite. The early stage is when they are dissimilar the most.
DSC_5225.JPG
This is JWP grafted to JBP
Obviously the graft will be below the 1st branch, yet I fail to see it.
WhitePine1b.jpg
Same tree 2005, quite dissimilar obvious union.

The question put forth in this thread is about what happens when JWP and dwarf at that, is grafted to strobiformis.
What is the hardiness, and I don't ever expect that to be concretely answered as there seems to
be an answer to it from zone 4 to zone 8 from reputable sources. This tree I picture above has seen -18ºF briefly
but not in an extended timeframe. It is hardy to my climate, similar to much of Japan no doubt, but not similar to
dry arid Southwestern US.
@Leo in N E Illinois poses a very intelligent question. One I'm afraid will remain elusive and contradictory.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Range maps are misleading in one particular aspect. They do not show elevation. The Sierra Nevada mountain range extends through Mexico, and there are some pretty high peaks south of the border. The southwestern white pine is from higher elevation areas, where the climate is definitely colder than the lowlands, which would suggest zone 8. But how much colder? In the Great Lakes region we have patches in the snow belts along Lakes Michigan, Lake Erie and Lake Huron that have patches where vegetation is decidedly more southern, more cold sensitive, than the surrounding areas. Disjunct distributions of fairly tender species. This is a very micro-climate specific phenomena, where the regular, very deep snow in these areas protects these species from the cold that occurs. A range map would suggest they would be cold hardy, but reality is that without the deep "Lake Effect" snow, these species would be wiped out.

I do not know if this applies to P. strobiliformis. Conifer Kingdom is a reputable company. Oregon State Univ. is another reputable source, as they are the land grant university for Oregon, that works with the landscape nursery industry.

I really don't know "the answers". How hardy it is.
 

Bonsai Nut

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Many of my new Japanese white pine cultivars come from a nursery outside of Asheville (zone 7a). They are all grafted on P. strobiformis root stock. So I can at least state that commercial nurseries have no problem with it there - for the eastern Appalachian market area.

We couldn't keep P. strobiformis (rootstock) in SoCal (zone 10a) because it was too warm. So the only way to keep JWP alive in SoCal was to buy one grafted on JBP rootstock. This was a requirement, not an aesthetic decision. Over time it is extremely hard to hide the graft union between JBP rootstock and JWP scion. I've seen it done when the graft is really low - like at the root line. If you are several inches up the trunk however it becomes very difficult once the tree begins to push adult bark. The plating nature of JBP is much heavier than JWP and the rootstock and bark tend to thicken at a faster rate than the scion.
 

Japonicus

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Many of my new Japanese white pine cultivars come from a nursery outside of Asheville (zone 7a). They are all grafted on P. strobiformis root stock. So I can at least state that commercial nurseries have no problem with it there - for the eastern Appalachian market area.

We couldn't keep P. strobiformis (rootstock) in SoCal (zone 10a) because it was too warm. So the only way to keep JWP alive in SoCal was to buy one grafted on JBP rootstock. This was a requirement, not an aesthetic decision. Over time it is extremely hard to hide the graft union between JBP rootstock and JWP scion. I've seen it done when the graft is really low - like at the root line. If you are several inches up the trunk however it becomes very difficult once the tree begins to push adult bark. The plating nature of JBP is much heavier than JWP and the rootstock and bark tend to thicken at a faster rate than the scion.
Well that makes me feel a little bit better about the hardiness. Also I have no qualms with Conifer Kingdom, this is a trial purchase.
The graft in the picture above must have been done in a really good way. The nebari has a few crossed roots, but for what I paid
for this tree when I did, I'm very happy with the union and likeness. I have no complaints there. The moss and lichen have been cleaned up since.
 

Japonicus

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from a nursery outside of Asheville
You know, I was going to take my pick up and drive down to Mountain Meadows and see what I might find
in JWP, but with covid and the fact that you had been there already and got the cream of the crop
and advertising it on the home page and new thread, well I figured I just try e-commerce to satisfy the itch
since they'd all been picked through ;)
 

Bonsai Nut

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You know, I was going to take my pick up and drive down to Mountain Meadows and see what I might find
in JWP, but with covid and the fact that you had been there already and got the cream of the crop
and advertising it on the home page and new thread, well I figured I just try e-commerce to satisfy the itch
since they'd all been picked through ;)

Haha, no I did not pick through much of anything, not by a long shot :) I bought perhaps 10 trees... he has an entire nursery full!

I am going back up there after the holidays to give him some JWP scions of a cultivar he doesn't have and has been seeking for a while. That's when he normally starts his JWP grafts - right after the 1st of the year.
 

PiñonJ

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:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:
So now that I do a little digging, I have less a clue on the hardiness than before
One site Zone 4


One site Zones 5-9


Another one Zone 8!!!

(see dist. and ecology Zone 8 or -12.1º C, or 10º F)

Who do you believe? This seriously directs how I over Winter my new trees!
They grow in the mountains here, so I’d believe the zone 4 claim.
 

Japonicus

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Haha, no I did not pick through much of anything, not by a long shot :) I bought perhaps 10 trees... he has an entire nursery full!

I am going back up there after the holidays to give him some JWP scions of a cultivar he doesn't have and has been seeking for a while. That's when he normally starts his JWP grafts - right after the 1st of the year.
Good to know. I need to learn grafting.
Sure wanted to go to the Biltmore down there and see the lights this year. Maybe another time.
They grow in the mountains here, so I’d believe the zone 4 claim.
Ok, thanks for chiming in. I knew they were elevational dwellers, but being how their main distribution is Mexico
maybe they're more adaptive than credit given. Not that Mexico doesn't have mountains, just so much more Southern...
 

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Research was inspired. Conifer Kingdom=ridiculous prices, will not allow to personally choose/pick up trees🧐. Pics of stock seem to show very messy high grafts. You may wish to return or plant in yard. Have sent inquiry and will post answers.
First question of what trees grafted onto/ growth difference?
I cannot answer your first question with any certainty since trees are usually sold within the first 5-8 years of life.

Second question: How high are grafts?
Unless otherwise stated, all grafts are within 2-4" of the soil's surface.
 

Japonicus

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First question of what trees grafted onto/ growth difference?
I cannot answer your first question with any certainty since trees are usually sold within the first 5-8 years of life.

Second question: How high are grafts?
Unless otherwise stated, all grafts are within 2-4" of the soil's surface.
I guess these are answers to your questions posed to Conifer Kingdom?
Glad they did not leave you hanging and answered your query in good time.
This JWP grafted to JBP I posted in post #7 is grafted at least 5" above the soil
and it transitions quite perfectly.
 

Adair M

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I own many grafted pines. None were grafted by commercial landscape nurseries, they were special grafts intended to produce bonsai.

In my opinion, I think it will be very rare to find a “quality graft” in landscape stock.

Bonsai requires “an attention to detail” over and above the requirements of producing good landscape material. Sure, you may luck out and find that pearl, but I feel time is better spent (and money better spent!) searching out for the trees grafted specifically for bonsai.
 

Adair M

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Have you any experience with strobiformis rootstock whether it outcompetes dwarf JWP or not?
No. I have no experience with stobiformis at all.

I am not sure what you’re getting at with the “outcompetes” question.

The reason JWP are grafted onto other stock is to clone the foliage. JWP seedlings vary a lot as to the quality of the foliage. The grafted ones have that nice blue foliage that makes nice tight tufts that makes for beautiful pads of foliage. Seedlings don’t. Typical JWP foliage grown from seed are usually greener, the tufts are more open, the needles aren’t straight, they grow longer internodes, etc. By grafting, the grower can assure he gets good foliage quality.

Why do the Japanese use JBP stock? One reason is it’s abundant. The other is JBP creates a mature looking bark decades faster than does JWP. So, they figured out that they can produce little trees that look mature within 10 to 12 years, whereas if it were a JWP trunk, it takes 30 to 40 years to get mature bark. The price is the JBP trunk gets fatter faster than the JWP. So, there’s always a change of caliper at the graft union. For years, the JBP section will be flakey and rough while the JWP section will be the smooth grey bark. After 25 years or so the JWP will start to become flaky. After another 15 years or so, it’s texture will be similar to the JBP, but there will still be a caliper difference between the two sections.

The better JWP on JBP grafts will have a branch very close to the graft union. That branch is trained so that some foliage obscures the graft union from view.

Using a white pine stock rather than JBP is done here in the US. In this case, the white pine stock acts much more like the JWP scion. It does not fatten faster than the scion, and it also takes a long, long time to become flaky and rough. Therefore, it will have the appearance of a young tree for a long time. Another common stock is Scots. This has the advantage of appearing mature at a young age, but does not fatten as fast as JBP.

There is a technique used to wrap wire around the stock portion of the tree to speed up the fattening. It works in that it fattens the trunk quicker than if it weren’t wired and left in. The downside is it leaves a tell tale spiral scar that shows it was done artificially. After 50 years, you can’t see the spiral so much. But until then, it’s pretty obvious.
 
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