What has become of the Bonsai practitioner ?

[edprocoat]

Man I am distraught ! I love nature, I grew up in awe of trees and water and wildlife. I love growing vegetables and gardening and when I first seen Bonsai, miniature trees I could carry around I fell in love with this artform as a child. Admittedly I am not the artist that many of you here in this forum are, I have never studied under a master nor for that matter have I taken a class. I truly appreciate this artform and am in awe of the produce of many here and I bumble along producing my meager attempts, apeing an art that although I love and appreciate it, I realize that I may never be proficient enough to gain the respect of the many truly talented peoples that frequent this site or for that matter the several Bonsai sites I frequent at Facebook. This week I have seen posts on Facebook by a moron who feels that any plant, Cactus, Fern or Aloe is Bonsai as its " a plant in pot" and really troubling is the ass clowns who are intent on collecting Bald Cypress without permission from land owners or respect for the laws which protect these trees as well as their oft mis-identified cousin the Pond Cypress. When I tell them to be careful and check local laws, even including a link to protected Florida trees, they ridicule me and state they are basically going to collect them anyway, or like the one buffoon who claims that Florida agency told him " As long as its not on private land its ok " ??? I can not believe that there are people who care enough for trees to want to mimic them in miniature who would carelessly scoff at the very laws designed to protect these trees when they can easily and cheaply purchase the same trees from local nurseries, and save the possible lawyer and court costs. Any excuse for raping the environment is as worthy as any excuse for any rape, basically laughable. What has become of this artform, is it just this new group of enthusiasts ? If that is the case what does this bode for the future of this artform, my daughter is talented both horticulturalkly and in design and although she has no intent in showing she does keep Bonsai and her children may show trees in 15-20 years, if its still legal then .....

Are we thugs or artists ?

ed

 

[reddog]

Thanks for your post. I think your message speaks to a larger issue about self-entitlement in our society. You pick up the newspaper and read about stupid frivolous lawsuits, crazy examples of government money abuse, and just plain "I'm going to get what's mine…" mentality. Not sure what the solution is but I shake my head sometimes.

 

[milehigh_7]

Are we thugs or artists ?

ed

Well Ed, we might start with one of your recent posts which was pretty nasty to a person fairly new to the house that was asking about a Cherry... I say clean up your own yard before you worry about others.

Sure it's a technicality but a plant in a pot is kind of the definition of the word bonsai.

What's more I read the thread about the bald Cypress and have been on forums with Jim since the 90's and he's a lot of things but he is knowledgeable. Also, you might not want to throw insults and obnoxious vulgarities out there when you are complaining about other people being "thugs".

Not that you care but one of the "[redacted] who are intent on collecting Bald Cypress without permission from land owners or respect for the laws which protect these trees..." states the following, "However if you could produce or direct me to the info you are thinking of, or know of, I will gladly take a look to make sure no laws are broken, and no more harm is done to the collecting aspect of bonsai to the public eye. "

OHHH sounds belligerent to me.

Also, you decided to pop off which led me to read the link you posted which is from Lee County and refers to Lee County laws only says the following, "Native trees are protected from removal and abuse on subdivision, commercial and industrial development sites. " I hardly think collecting a tree is the same as building a subdivision. Even if they were clearing to build a subdivision they could get a permit according to this link you posted. Sheesh... Who is the thug?

Just my $.02.

 

[sorce]

I get all my trees right out from under California Condors.
Before I pot them, I beat White Rhinos with them.
Then I use insecticide and fertilizer over a drain that leads to the ocean,
In hopes of killing sharks.

Who wants to go collecting?

Just kidding....I'll never give up my collection Sites!

Seriously though......what the hell happened Ed?

Sorce

 

[milehigh_7]

Seriously though......what the hell happened Ed?

Sorce

He does seem a little bitter for some reason... It happens to the best of us. ;-)

 

[edprocoat]

Milehigh, please post my "nasty" post about a cherry ? The lee county site was in reference to a person who posted he was collecting BC on a friends property. (subdivision) in the state of Florida. The .gov sites have been defunded so if you care to look it up go to the floridastate.edu site.

I still do not get what the hell a post about a cherry has to do with stealing trees, or what I did to you to bring you down from your milehigh to be such an ass in your posting towards me? if you are talking about the two pots for one tree post that is so asinine you have embarrassed yourself bringing it up, unless that was your post or you actually have one tree rooted in two pots. Either way a plant in a pot may the best translation of the Jpanese term Bonsai but only a true moron would actually think a fern in a dish could be called a Bonsai. Perhaos you are kin to the ass clown on Bonsai talk that planted an aloe in a dish and has argued for two days how it is a Bonsai and he don't care about style or conventions and his style is all that matters to him and is technically right as its a plant in a pot. Either way my friend try to show that even in a local Bonsai club and enjoy the reaction you receive. As I said to the imbecile " you can pick your nose and call your produce art but tht does not mean anyone will accept it as such"

I tire arguing with fools for the sake truth, what difference does it make. If I insulted cherry boy, let him grow his plant in as many pots as he likes and you can compliment him on his multi potted "bonsai" while I laugh at his stupidity. How is that for cleaning my yard? BTW I have provided a dozen links on collecting trees and whether you or whoever likes it or disagrees you can not collect BC or PC or buttonwood or mangrove or slash pine along with many other species in Florida. But hey knock yourself out and if you get away with it you are as much a criminal as the tax cheat who gets away with it each year. Milehigh I truly do not know your agenda, perhaps you are just like that lady in the bar we all run into at one time or another in our life, she has no dog in the fight but her PMS makes her feel like she has to to get involved anyway. Have a good life. sheww......

ed

 

[whfarro]

I personally struggle with idea collecting trees from the wild. This is my own conflict to deal with. Year's ago as a Boy Scout we adhered to a "Leave no Trace" code...take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints etc. Does removing one decades old tree impact the environment/eco-system? Maybe, maybe not. While I am so tempted to bring home some of these awesome trees from my hikes here in the Hudson Valley and Adirondacks, I currently usually settle for taking only digital images from which I can only hope to be continually inspired and in awe of natures magnificence. Again, this is my own code and conflict.

Regarding the "tone" of blogs, forums, Facebook and other digital communication exchanges, I do see that on occasion they all tend to get heated at some point. I think it is because of the one way (I post..wait - you reply...wait) nature of posts versus a true interactive dialog, where nuance, let me clarify or let me stop you there and ask or are you sure interactions give a pause to defacto this way or that way comments and positions.

May we all try and be mindful of our tone and "keep it civil" even when we agree to disagree.

I too hope that our love of nature, our common bond in this ancient practice of Bonsai which blends science, art, and spirituality helps keep our feelings in check.

Again, just my personal thoughts.

 

[Djtommy]

Maybe just a little bit off topic but as to the bonsai is plant in pot thing.
Obviously they also dont call any plant in a pot a bonsai in japan.
For this they have a different word which is hachiue(鉢植え), hachi also means pot and ue comes from ueru which means to plant.
Just for who didnt know and was wondering

Grtz,
Tommy

 

[catfish chapstick]

Personally I believe bonsai is whatever we make of it.

when it comes to collecting of course ethically there is a bit of a grey area. Idk where to draw the line sometimes.

 

[M. Frary]

Personally I believe bonsai is whatever we make of it.

when it comes to collecting of course ethically there is a bit of a grey area. Idk where to draw the line sometimes.

I skulk in that gray area. It's the best place to collect trees.

 

[jk_lewis]

and really troubling is the ass clowns who are intent on collecting Bald Cypress without permission from land owners or respect for the laws which protect these trees as well as their oft mis-identified cousin the Pond Cypress.

BTW I have provided a dozen links on collecting trees and whether you or whoever likes it or disagrees you can not collect BC or PC or buttonwood or mangrove or slash pine along with many other species in Florida.

Ed . . . I dunno who got your skivvies jammed into such a knot, but I'm astounded that a gent from Ohio knows -- or thinks he knows -- so much about collecting in Florida.

However, even in Lee County (Fort Myers area on the southern Gulf Coast), you CAN collect a bald cypress from an individual's yard with permission of that individual. The county ordinance (applies ONLY in Lee County) deals with land CLEARING. It also is "enforced" liberally, if I recall.

Florida's endangered plant list includes only those plants listed by the federal government ( http://www.freshfromflorida.com/Div...gram/Florida-s-Federally-Listed-Plant-Species ) and does NOT include Taxodium distichum (bald cypress/pond cypress) and most certainly does not include the slash pine (P. elliottii), one of the most common (and widely planted in pine plantations) trees in Central to South Florida. When I was working in this field we tried on several occasions to include other plants not listed by the feds, but could not get it through Florida's Legislature.

Anyone may get a permit to collect from state forests from the State Division of Forestry local office. Some other state lands allow collecting, but parks and preserves do not. Private landowners have full authority to give permission to collect -- almost anything -- on their property. Many corporations do not give permission because of various liability issues -- not the least of which are snakes and alligators.

More than almost anyone else here (and on the IBC) I emphasize the need to follow the law regarding collecting, to not be piggy, and to clean up after yourself when you do. I wrote an article back in the 90s for the ABS Journal called "The Ethics of Collecting" in which I lambasted collectors (many of them out west) who bring home truckloads of collected trees to sell. It should be on the web somewhere.

I hope you will be feeling better soon.

 

[timetravel_0]

what difference does it make.

His pots, his trees, his money. As long as he's getting enjoyment out of it, you don't have to look.

For me, any art that isn't a bison or elk painted on a cave wall is nothing but some jerk off changing the rules, and doing what they like, instead of staying with tradition.

Funny how that works.

I think it also comes down to the basic dichotomy of ideologies. You have the people that are happy letting other people do what they want, as long as it doesn't negatively affect them... Then you have the people that want to control people that they don't even know.

I also like how you came running here with your tail between your legs. "Styrene John" didn't have an Aloe in a pot. It was a different succulent that was much more tree-like in appearance. You're changing facts to try to get posters here to stroke your ego. If you're going to repeat things here off of Facebook, you should at least report them accurately for your second opinion.

Just to add, and to answer your question: I'm going with option A) You're being a wannabe thug about it.

 

[Zach Smith]

I have no desire to start a shouting match, but collecting trees for bonsai is not quite the same thing as clear-cutting a rainforest. When you consider the number of bonsai enthusiasts and the sheer volume of small trees and shrubs in existence, it should become clear pretty quickly that our impact is minimal in the grand scheme of things. Furthermore, take a look at the fencerows and utility rights of way, two of the best places to collect. Drive past them day after day, then when the road crews or powerline crews come by and spray the whole lot with Roundup(R) (brand herbicide) and kill them dead, think whether you'd rather have seen those trees collected for bonsai or go to ruin.

I don't know the laws of the State of Florida, but in the State of Louisiana the bald cypress is not endangered and therefore comes under no special legal protection. I can further assert with a good degree of confidence that of all the specimens of BC in this state, far fewer than 0.0001% are desirable and/or collectible as bonsai. If those were all collected, 1) no one would notice, neither man nor beast, and 2) the species has this interesting habit of reproducing itself - it's what the well-meaning environmental folks would call a renewable resource. It happens all by itself, but kudos to those in the nursery trade who make more.

Collecting trees for bonsai with permission is not only not an awful thing to do, it arguably makes the world a better place. This doesn't mean everyone who does it is a wonderful person, but it also doesn't mean all of us who do it are terrible people.

Zach

 

[jk_lewis]

When you consider the number of bonsai enthusiasts and the sheer volume of small trees and shrubs in existence, it should become clear pretty quickly that our impact is minimal in the grand scheme of things.

I tend to agree, Zach, but small groups do make a difference in many instances. Two examples from Florida:

The Florida Keys used to be home to several species of very colorful tree snails. Many of those species are extinct today because of shell collectors. The same holds true for several species of orchids that once grey on hammocks in the Florida Everglades.

All of these extinctions occurred before people were thinking much about these things, and these examples also occurred in species that had a very limited range and small populations to begin with.

But a small group can have an adverse effect upon biological resources.

 

[Zach Smith]

I tend to agree, Zach, but small groups do make a difference in many instances. Two examples from Florida:

The Florida Keys used to be home to several species of very colorful tree snails. Many of those species are extinct today because of shell collectors. The same holds true for several species of orchids that once grey on hammocks in the Florida Everglades.

All of these extinctions occurred before people were thinking much about these things, and these examples also occurred in species that had a very limited range and small populations to begin with.

But a small group can have an adverse effect upon biological resources.

Hey, I get what you're saying about certain species, Jim, it's just that ranting about "protected" bald/pond cypress and how awful it is to collect them just can't go unanswered. I'm right on the front lines to protect species needing protection. Unfortunately, the sentiment tends to slop over into every aspect of life in the wrong hands.

Zach

 

[Vance Wood]

I skulk in that gray area. It's the best place to collect trees.

You might put it another way; If you are having a problem with flatulence of the aromatic kind it is best dealt with in two ways: One is to run off and hide where no one can see, or smell, you;--- or stand in a crowd where the certainty of the source is in question, especially if you look around with a disgusted look on your face as though searching for the offending someone other than yourself.

 

[milehigh_7]

Milehigh, please post my "nasty" post about a cherry ?
ed

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?17620-Cherry-Blossom&p=236594#post236594

I still do not get what the hell a post about a cherry has to do with stealing trees...

It has to do with being a "thug" a synonym of which is "bully". As in the pot calling the kettle black. As a side note, "Stealing trees" is a pretty strong accusation and it's called libel to publish such a claim unless you have means to prove it.

or what I did to you to bring you down from your milehigh to be such an ass in your posting towards me? if you are talking about the two pots for one tree post that is so asinine you have embarrassed yourself bringing it up, unless that was your post or you actually have one tree rooted in two pots. Either way a plant in a pot may the best translation of the Jpanese term Bonsai but only a true moron would actually think a fern in a dish could be called a Bonsai. Perhaos you are kin to the ass clown on Bonsai talk that planted an aloe in a dish and has argued for two days how it is a Bonsai and he don't care about style or conventions and his style is all that matters to him and is technically right as its a plant in a pot. Either way my friend try to show that even in a local Bonsai club and enjoy the reaction you receive. As I said to the imbecile " you can pick your nose and call your produce art but tht does not mean anyone will accept it as such"

I tire arguing with fools for the sake truth, what difference does it make. If I insulted cherry boy, let him grow his plant in as many pots as he likes and you can compliment him on his multi potted "bonsai" while I laugh at his stupidity. How is that for cleaning my yard? BTW I have provided a dozen links on collecting trees and whether you or whoever likes it or disagrees you can not collect BC or PC or buttonwood or mangrove or slash pine along with many other species in Florida. But hey knock yourself out and if you get away with it you are as much a criminal as the tax cheat who gets away with it each year. Milehigh I truly do not know your agenda, perhaps you are just like that lady in the bar we all run into at one time or another in our life, she has no dog in the fight but her PMS makes her feel like she has to to get involved anyway. Have a good life. sheww......

ed

You brought up the "maple raft project" which is yet another example of your rudeness and can be found here:
http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?17562-Red-Maple-raft-project

I mean I get it if you don't like it but sheesh talk about "not having a dog in the fight"... but I digress...

Anyway I have been called names by better folk than you so it is no skin off my nose but really to throw out words like: "moron", "imbecile" or "fool" and bragging how you laugh at the stupidity of others while you can barely string a sentence together or tell the difference between collecting in a subdivision and creating a subdivision by clearing land, is rich.

It seems like the emperor has new clothes.

Also, what does it prosper you to disrespect women? I guess that makes you feel super cool.

 

[DougB]

I'm sure glad we can put folks on our "ignore list". Makes the day brighter.

 

[Bunjeh]

Don't forget the baby seals.

I get all my trees right out from under California Condors.
Before I pot them, I beat White Rhinos with them.
Then I use insecticide and fertilizer over a drain that leads to the ocean,
In hopes of killing sharks.

And then use them to club baby seals!

 

[Bunjeh]

Hmmm,

Milehigh, please post my "nasty" post about a cherry ? The lee county site was in reference to a person who posted he was collecting BC on a friends property. (subdivision) in the state of Florida. The .gov sites have been defunded so if you care to look it up go to the floridastate.edu site.

I still do not get what the hell a post about a cherry has to do with stealing trees, or what I did to you to bring you down from your milehigh to be such an ass in your posting towards me? if you are talking about the two pots for one tree post that is so asinine you have embarrassed yourself bringing it up, unless that was your post or you actually have one tree rooted in two pots. Either way a plant in a pot may the best translation of the Jpanese term Bonsai but only a true moron would actually think a fern in a dish could be called a Bonsai. Perhaos you are kin to the ass clown on Bonsai talk that planted an aloe in a dish and has argued for two days how it is a Bonsai and he don't care about style or conventions and his style is all that matters to him and is technically right as its a plant in a pot. Either way my friend try to show that even in a local Bonsai club and enjoy the reaction you receive. As I said to the imbecile " you can pick your nose and call your produce art but tht does not mean anyone will accept it as such"

I tire arguing with fools for the sake truth, what difference does it make. If I insulted cherry boy, let him grow his plant in as many pots as he likes and you can compliment him on his multi potted "bonsai" while I laugh at his stupidity. How is that for cleaning my yard? BTW I have provided a dozen links on collecting trees and whether you or whoever likes it or disagrees you can not collect BC or PC or buttonwood or mangrove or slash pine along with many other species in Florida. But hey knock yourself out and if you get away with it you are as much a criminal as the tax cheat who gets away with it each year. Milehigh I truly do not know your agenda, perhaps you are just like that lady in the bar we all run into at one time or another in our life, she has no dog in the fight but her PMS makes her feel like she has to to get involved anyway. Have a good life. sheww......

ed

OK, as the "Ass Clown" who suggested the two pots for the raft, let me chip in here. In this post alone you refer to others as "ass, moron, asinine, ass clown, imbecile, stupid, criminal, .. I probably missed a couple. To begin, please define "Ass Clown". I have been called a dumbass, an asshole, even an ass hat, but ass clown is new one. Please elucidate.

As for your disdain for those who practice this art in a style and manner not in keeping with your high standards and traditions, need I remind you that Rembrandt and Jackson Pollock are both icons of the art world, but their styles are as different as,..well, an ass and a clown.

So remember, opinions are like assholes. Both stink and are best kept to ourselves.