What if you can't get Turface?

[Kirk]

It is a 10 year old tree. It's got a beautiful trunk, but I kinda want to work on its nebari. I'll post a picture once I receive it.

I asked because if you are wanting to increase its size/ nebari you may consider skipping the turface or the ultra fast draining finished bonsai standard and continue to grow it out in something like Nature's Helper. I've done that myself and its also what Gary Marchal (cajun bonsai) does with his newly collected trees to allow them to grow and flush back out. Once you have the tree where you want it, you can transfer it into a bonsai pot and use a mixture of lava and screened Nature's Helper. BC tolerate wet feet but grow happily in well draining soil, as well. I have noticed that they develop a nicer nebari and trunk flare/ribs when grown in about 6 inches of water up the trunk. Otherwise they tend to have fairly straight trunks with round roots shooting out like props.

Kirk

 

[Kirk]

Send Mark Rockwell a PM asking of sources in your area. rockm on the forum. He will be able to steer you in the right direction.

Please remember that this soil medium issue is mostly shrouded in myth. Fast draining soils with inert non soil like components are OK, but should never overshadow what can be expected with correct fertilization and correct watering. Of course this will all be dependent on what the soil is and what your habits become. You can grow beautiful bonsai in akadama and hugyya, and you can grow beautiful bonsai in a 50/50 mix of super soil and play sand from Home Depot. Watering and fertilizing will have to be adjusted to each. You can do this, don't get caught up in all the hype.

Happy New Year, Al

I was asking Rodney Clemons about his soil mix and he told me that he had once asked John Naka the same thing. Naka's response was, "Rodney, you can grow a tree in marbles as long as you watch the water."

Kirk

 

[Redwood Ryan]

Thanks everyone!

Due to the suggestions, I am just going to grow it in regular soil. That sounds like a plan. It needs work down by the base anyway.

I juat remembered that the current owner has it in Turface. Could changing the soil hurt the tree?

Thanks!

 

[Redwood Ryan]

And, it should be a highly organic soil, correct?

Happy New Year!

 

[Smoke]

And, it should be a highly organic soil, correct?

Happy New Year!

Ryan, first you should do a a little googleing on "soil" and see exactly what soil is. Soil is rock, plain and simple. Fine organic soil is rock soil,ie. sand that has been infused with organic substances like pine needles in conifer landscapes and leaves in more meadow and diciduous type landscapes. The more organics in the "soil" the less need for fertilizers ( I said less not none at all) due to the humates from the decomposing organics.

Growing your plant in a more organic based soil will mean you may water less, and you may fertilize less. The need to move towards more inorganic based soils was some myth that organic soils clogged and cause roots to rot which is just pure bunk. Roots in water will not kill trees. Roots in soil with too much water and no air will kill trees. Hydroponic growing has shown that trees will live perfectly happy lives growing with roots submerged all the time. They just need air which is usually injected or done with trickle systems.


Growing in an organic system or an inorganic system will not make much difference in general as long as we compare apples and apples. In other words if we could scientifically check and make sure everything was the same it would be no different. Soil is just a mechanical anchoring system for a plant and has no other really usefull function in the mechanics of how a tree grows. In bonsai it serves three purposes...
1. Anchors tree in pot.
2. Serves as vehicle for administration of fertilizer.
3. Cover unsightly holes in bottom of pot.

Happy New Year, Al

 

[Redwood Ryan]

Ryan, first you should do a a little googleing on "soil" and see exactly what soil is. Soil is rock, plain and simple. Fine organic soil is rock soil,ie. sand that has been infused with organic substances like pine needles in conifer landscapes and leaves in more meadow and diciduous type landscapes. The more organics in the "soil" the less need for fertilizers ( I said less not none at all) due to the humates from the decomposing organics.

Growing your plant in a more organic based soil will mean you may water less, and you may fertilize less. The need to move towards more inorganic based soils was some myth that organic soils clogged and cause roots to rot which is just pure bunk. Roots in water will not kill trees. Roots in soil with too much water and no air will kill trees. Hydroponic growing has shown that trees will live perfectly happy lives growing with roots submerged all the time. They just need air which is usually injected or done with trickle systems.


Growing in an organic system or an inorganic system will not make much difference in general as long as we compare apples and apples. In other words if we could scientifically check and make sure everything was the same it would be no different. Soil is just a mechanical anchoring system for a plant and has no other really usefull function in the mechanics of how a tree grows. In bonsai it serves three purposes...
1. Anchors tree in pot.
2. Serves as vehicle for administration of fertilizer.
3. Cover unsightly holes in bottom of pot.

Happy New Year, Al

Haha I like that last purpose. Thanks Al that clears everything up. But, I am still wondering one thing. The current owner has the tree in Turface. If I get the tree and put it into regular potting soil, won't the tree be severely injured? Thanks!

 

[Kirk]

Haha I like that last purpose. Thanks Al that clears everything up. But, I am still wondering one thing. The current owner has the tree in Turface. If I get the tree and put it into regular potting soil, won't the tree be severely injured? Thanks!

Hi Ryan,

A photo of the tree would be helpful. BC are vigorous, tough trees. It shouldn't be much of a problem repotting it into something like Nature's Helper. Many commercial nurseries use something similar to grow container trees, shrubs, etc.

If it were my tree and I wanted it to gain some size or work on the nebari I would do this:
1. Purchase a large, black plastic mortar trough from Home Depot (less than $10).
2. Drill lots of holes in the bottom.
3. Sometime in late Feb. or so, before the buds pop, repot the tree from its current container- untangling roots, clipping anything dead, but not doing a drastic root pruning.
4. Repot it into the converted mortar trough with Nature's Helper, tie it in and give it a drink of water.

Keep it in the sun, don't let it completely dry out and feed it well. You should see some vigorous growth through the growing season.

Good luck.

Kirk

 

[Redwood Ryan]

Thanks so much Kirk! I would love to post a pic, but I don't quite have one yet. It still needs to be shipped to me. But once I get a picture of it, I will post it in another thread. You guys have helped me so much! I'll go see if I can find a mortar at our local Home Depot, as I like your suggestion. Who knows, mayb the tree doesn't need much trunk work in your professional eyes

 

[subnet_rx]

I bought a BC for a friend to grow as his first bonsai. I put it in Jungle Growth Moisture Potting Mix that is found at Lowes. I did this so that it's easy for him to keep wet and there will be less chance that he forgets to water for a few days and it die. That can happen very easily in the summer with turface. It is growing very well. Bald Cypress can tolerate some dryness and excessive moisture, so you picked a good tree to have a soil problem with.

 

[Redwood Ryan]

So I should get a highly organic, moisture holding soil? Thanks everyone!

 

[grouper52]

I have noticed that they develop a nicer nebari and trunk flare/ribs when grown in about 6 inches of water up the trunk. Otherwise they tend to have fairly straight trunks with round roots shooting out like props.

Kirk

I'm not overly familiar with this tree, but this is my understanding as well. The same feed stores where you get your soil can sell you largish metal or plastic tubs for decent prices, and the whole pot the tree sits in can be submerged with no danger. My brother, who used to deal in these trees sometimes, says it's safe and effective.

 

[irene_b]

We use whatever is handy...ponds, buckets, kiddie pools...They all work just as well...

 

[aredsfan]

For what its worth, I have a young Bald Cypress seedling that I bought last fall from Evergreengardenworks.com. I have it planted in the water garden soil you asked about. Its planted in a pond basket in my pond. I was also fertilizing it with pond tabs, which are tabs of fertilizer that you burry in the planter. It grew very well this summer, but not too fast. My pond is in the shade. Currently its iced over. Also, the reason its in that soil was I wanted to see what it does. Most of my pond plants are top soil with pea gravel over the top. Im just letting it grow to see what it does. I was thinking about getting another one and put it into a tub in the sun and see how it does. Andy

 

[Redwood Ryan]

Thanks for the help everyone! I really want the nice trunk on it. Would it be best to grow it in a pot (or mortar?) without drainage holes so that there can be standing water so that the trunk gets fluted? Thanks everyone!

 

[irene_b]

Thanks for the help everyone! I really want the nice trunk on it. Would it be best to grow it in a pot (or mortar?) without drainage holes so that there can be standing water so that the trunk gets fluted? Thanks everyone!

NO....It will rot (stagnant water)...use a kiddie pool just add some big rocks then put the baldie in a pot and set it on the rocks...It will wick up...

 

[Redwood Ryan]

Okay so I need to get a pool, fill it with water, and put big rocks in. I then put the pot on those rocks. Just out of curiosity, but how would that help the trunk? Sorry for the dumb questions.

 

[irene_b]

Okay so I need to get a pool, fill it with water, and put big rocks in. I then put the pot on those rocks. Just out of curiosity, but how would that help the trunk? Sorry for the dumb questions.

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3149

 

[Redwood Ryan]

Thank you!

 

[mcpesq817]

Thanks for the help everyone! I really want the nice trunk on it. Would it be best to grow it in a pot (or mortar?) without drainage holes so that there can be standing water so that the trunk gets fluted? Thanks everyone!

I'm not an expert on BC as I just got my first this past summer, but I believe the trunk will develop fluting if the tree grows thick branches on the side where you want the fluting. I don't believe the fluting is developed from being in standing water. So, depending on how big your tree is and how much fluting you're looking for, I really wonder if you can get fluting by using containers. Hopefully someone with more experience with BCs can answer that for you.

By the way, one option to let your BC sit in water would be to buy a galvanized tub (like the kind you use for outdoor parties to hold beer in ice), fill it with a couple of inches of water, and sit your BC's pot inside it. I did that this summer to help my BC recover from an out of season repot and it seemed to really help the tree. That being said, you might need to use a smaller container if the pot your BC is in is small. Also, remember to change the water regularly, to avoid mosquitos, etc.

 

[Redwood Ryan]

Hmm thanks for the info. I'm probably going to put it near water, but not directly in it. It is currently on it's way here and should arroive on wednesday. I'll post a picture in a new thread when that happens. Thanks!