What is the American style?

JasonG

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I just read back through todays action here and one thing I noticed is that everyone is refering to regional styles of trees.... trees on the east coast will look different that west coast trees. I find it facinating that we have gone to the "naturalistic" approach....

If you look at most of the traditional Asian styling everything looks like a pine, you know that triangle shape. Maples, elms, etc.. look like a pine. With that said, if this were the case then all trees would look the same no matter where you lived in the world, right? A tradiitional Japanese approcah applied to a tree would be the same if pulled off by a Japanese master or an American master trained in Japan.

How many people besides Walter actually try to make a maple look like a maple, or an oak look like an oak? I ask based on what gets posted online in the forums or elsewhere on the internet. From what I have seen not too many people can actually pull it off the way he does.

I will say this though, having done a few workshops with Boon I was suprised at how natural of an approach is taken with collected material. It is a wild tree, keep it that way, no need to make it something it isn't ~ classical style. Very refreshing!

Oh, and Tom, I didn't take your earlier statement the wrong way. I knew what you meant and I only replied as a general statement, not really directed at you :)

Jason
 

cbobgo

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actually, we're not on two different subjects, because if you will read my first post I said that I didn't think there was an all encompasing American style. So we are disagreeing about something that we agree about.

My point was that there isn't an overall American style, but that you could define regional styles, if you chose to do so, but not all trees and not all artist in that region would necesarily have that style.

I think America is too large and too diverse to have a unified style of anything. You can't even really say that there is an overall style to American art, or American food, or American music. There is such a huge variety. You can say that some individual thing is American, but it doesn't have some specific quality that is it's "Americaness," that you could then apply as a test to other things.

For instance, Kansas city style barbecue is a distinctly American quisine. But so is New England clam chowder. But the two don't have a single quality in common, other than that they are associated with specific places in America.

I suppose the same could be said of bonsai trees. If you see a characteristic in a tree that is suggestive of a specific place in America, then you could call it an American style tree. But that's a pretty vague definition.

- bob


- bob
 

Tachigi

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You can't even really say that there is an overall style to American art, or American food, or American music

Ok Bob, I have to draw the line on American food. No where else is there a Hamburger smothered in onions and cheddar cheese. That is definitely an American style. I would say hot dogs and baked beans would also qualify, and not to put a to fine appoint on it the little beanie weenies that magical mystery meat definitely an American style :)
 

cbobgo

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no you missed my point - there is definitely food that is American, but can you define 1 singular quality that can be applied to all "American" food? Other than that it historically came from America, or is eaten alot in America, etc? Something about the food itself? Is there something "American" about a hot dog that is the same "American" thing about apple pie?

- bob
 

Tachigi

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Here's a challenge for those who think styles can be categorized by region. Take a look at the link below, this leads to a contest where 17 countries are represented. Scroll down just enough to see an entry but not the text below it and see if you can guess the country of origin just by the styling of the tree. Impossible isn't it?

http://www.artofbonsai.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=467

OK Will, I took your challenge. I went through the first 10 pages or 150 images. Of those images I eliminated trees I recognized some of Vance's and a couple of Walters. I also eliminated the accent plants which left me with about 100 images(if I didn't mess up counting on my fingers). Of these 100 images I got 72 of them right. Now to be fair I did not go by country I did it by continent as was my original premise when I started the thread. To identify by country I concede would be extremely difficult to do for the exception of the Italians. Something about their trees oozes there identity. Could be the dark almost oiled looking bark contrasting against the white shari.

This was a great challenge and exercise. It really made me think and take in the image to evaluate it more so than I do on a day to day basis. I will say this, at the risk of being stoned by my US bonsai bretheren. When it comes to identification, one of the easiest ways to tell the differences is detail. For example, look at the detail work between the trees of the Europeans and the US there is a noticeable difference from ramification right down to the picture itself. Is detail part of a style, I would say yes that it is a facet. I want to thank you Will, I truly learned something with this and answered some of my own nagging questions.
 

Tachigi

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no you missed my point

No I got it Bob .... it was my attempt at lame humor to make sure that this stays light
 

Jon Chown

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Jason says,
If you look at most of the traditional Asian styling everything looks like a pine, you know that triangle shape. Maples, elms, etc.. look like a pine. With that said, if this were the case then all trees would look the same no matter where you lived in the world,

I would either love meet the person who first coined the phrase ‘everything looks like a pine” or at least have someone explain what the statement means. Unless we are strictly talking about Formal Upright design, then I find this statement to be totally untrue – of course I may be reading different books to you people. While I haven’t been to America and your country may well be different to mine when I stand outside and look around at the trees in my area they all appear to have ‘that triangle shape’, granted some of them are pointed at the top and some are rounded at the top but geometrically they all appear triangular – except the topiaries and they are round (in most cases).

And
How many people besides Walter actually try to make a maple look like a maple, or an oak look like an oak?

With due respect to Walter, I’m not sure that he tries to make a maple look like a maple as such or an oak like an oak. Let me explain. If you were to go around and photograph a dozen maples and a dozen oaks and line the pictures in a row, there will perhaps be one or two that have a pleasing silhouette or shape. Perhaps these are the ‘Classic’ Maple or Oak. What I am saying is that not all Oaks or Maples grow exactly the same and as such they can’t be called a Maple style or Oak style. We have a Gum tree in Australia that grows very similar to your Californian Oak so what would be more correct Oak style or Gum style, or would it just depend upon which Country you lived in?

Jon
 

Behr

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Many good thoughts, points, observations, and opinions, have been expressed, and will no doubt continue to be expressed for many years to come on this subject...I too will expound my thoughts and opinions...

Unfortunately the line we usually draw between ‘style’ and ‘form’, is a very thin and not easily distinguished one...The word ‘style’ is often used when in fact we are referring to a tree ‘form, we often hear; “formal upright style”, “literati style”, “clump style”, etc., when we are actually discussing tree ‘forms’...’Style’ is a way to describe the characteristics of an individual artist’s work, such as a “Walter Pall style”, a “Nick Lenz style”, or a “Kimura style”, but in reality it is not the correct means to communicate the ‘form’ a cascade tree has...However as some have stated ‘styles’ may indeed have a ‘regional’ connotation...This is usually based on the culture of a region, the growing conditions and climate, the influential artists and teachers of a particular region, and/or the trees that grow in nature in a region...Most all ‘artistic potted trees’, which we usually refer to as bonsai, have influences from regions other than the area where the artist resides...

The ‘Americas’ is very young when compared to many other areas where bonsai is practiced, and therefore may not indeed have developed a distinguishable culture as some older nations and countries have...There are possibly a few cultural things that tend to influence our tree designs here in the United States...One that comes to mind is other forms of art, although this is a thread that is also common with other ‘Western’ countries...In many ‘Asian’ arts the things not expressed or shown are often more important to the overall image than those which are expressed, whereas in the ‘Western’ arts, ‘over emphasis’, over exaggeration, and extravagance, are the norm...Especially here in the United States our arts have been much influenced in more recent years by the ‘movie and TV’ industry...Very little is left to the imagination, most things are taken to the extreme, and even in most of our paintings every inch of a canvas is covered with design...This is one thing I see as a probable characteristic of an ‘American style’ if there is such a thing...I would be more inclined to think this is a possible contribution our country will make in the future of bonsai design...

Our nation and indeed the continent has a wider variety of climate and growing conditions than possibly any other nation, therefore this will probably have less impact on a recognizable ‘style’ throughout the area, but certainly on a more regional basis it will be a very important factor...Just as some species seem to be more popular in Japan than they are in China and vice versa, there are also species popular in European, African, and Australian, bonsai that are not common in other regions of the world...Here in the southern United States, there are some species that are very popular as bonsai in Japan that we have much difficulty maintaining healthy trees...Likewise many of the tree species we work with are difficult for bonsaists even in the northern portions of the nation...

Certainly one of, if not the most influential person for bonsai in the Americas was and remains even after his passing, Mr. John Naka...While his background in the art was Asian based he encouraged people to use the ‘inspiration of their surroundings’ in his teachings, writings, and presentations...Many followed his example and their influence is seen quite heavily in smaller regions of our nation...A couple artist/teachers that come to mind in this aspect are Mr. Jim Smith in the Southeastern area, and Mr. Vaughn Banting in the southern Gulf Coast areas...While the work of all these artist demonstrate an ‘Asian’ influence, there are distinguishable characteristics of each, and their influence on others can readily be seen especially in those regions of the country...

While the cultural influence is evident in the work of the Chinese ‘potted trees’ one can often see a resemblance also to the trees of the mountain areas of the nation, and it is possible to tell their inspiration comes from the trees they are used to seeing in their surroundings…Likewise with Japan it is evident that the Chinese artists served as inspiration, but again the trees they are used to seeing ‘in the wild’ play an important role in their art…With the European bonsai the Asian influence is very present, but many artist are distinguishably inspired by the art and the trees in nature…The ‘timberline’ trees of the Alps can be seen in much of the work by European Artists…So it is also with Australia and Africa…The shape of the ‘Savanna Acacia’ is probably one of the most recognizable tree shapes in the world, the baobab and the pierneef forms are tree shapes that are also usually associated with Africa, and it would be a shame if these forms were not available to bonsai artist to use in their art…If an artist in Europe uses one of these commonly recognized forms that does not make it an African bonsai but it is apparent that the form is African influenced…Here in the United States we have several recognizable tree forms, and I hope in the future more of these will be used as inspiration for our trees…This does not make the tree an “American style” tree, but if a recognizable “American Style” is ever accepted I would think the tree forms in our surroundings would play an important role in establishing that ‘style’…

As stated when I began this lengthy dissertation, these are my thoughts and opinions…The Asian influence is quite predominant throughout the world in our art, and probably always will be…Perhaps even should be…But it will only be as more and more artists began to break away from the past, and use their own surroundings, their own influences, and the art native to their own region as inspiration, that we will began to see the emergence of a recognizable “American Style” in the art of bonsai…

Regards
Behr

:) :) :)
 
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The ‘Americas’ is very young when compared to many other areas where bonsai is practiced, and therefore may not indeed have developed a distinguishable culture as some older nations and countries have...There are possibly a few cultural things that tend to influence our tree designs here in the United States...One that comes to mind is other forms of art, although this is a thread that is also common with other ‘Western’ countries...In many ‘Asian’ arts the things not expressed or shown are often more important to the overall image than those which are expressed, whereas in the ‘Western’ arts, ‘over emphasis’, over exaggeration, and extravagance, are the norm

Good points Behr, however we must remember that America has a significant head start in bonsai as compared to other regions like Europe.

The old Asian painting were all two dimensional, lacking depth. They tended to use levels to create depth, the closest object being at the bottom, the farthest away being at the top. This use of levels is still prevalent in traditional bonsai display to this day. If you look at the old Asian woodblock prints, this is easy to see. Compare those with early American wood block carving prints, where instead of levels (and color) we used varying shades of gray to create true depth.

As to over emphasis and over exaggeration I think the Chinese rule when it comes to trees.


Will
 
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Tom,

You did far better than I did with the challenge and I posted each of those trees and added the infomation myself. I also has to eliminate those trees I knew or remembered. Interesting observation on American bonsai, many people either refuse to or are blind to the fact that American bonsai is lacking in some ways. Vance Wood recently wrote an article "The Problem With American Bonsai" that caused quite a stir at AoB, but he hit upon some very valid points like yours.

Maybe I am wrong, maybe there is an American style and maybe, just maybe it has nothing to do with the style but instead with the detail or lack of it?



Will
 

Vance Wood

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Tom,

You did far better than I did with the challenge and I posted each of those trees and added the infomation myself. I also has to eliminate those trees I knew or remembered. Interesting observation on American bonsai, many people either refuse to or are blind to the fact that American bonsai is lacking in some ways. Vance Wood recently wrote an article "The Problem With American Bonsai" that caused quite a stir at AoB, but he hit upon some very valid points like yours.

Maybe I am wrong, maybe there is an American style and maybe, just maybe it has nothing to do with the style but instead with the detail or lack of it?

Just joking but not by much.



Will

I have said it before and I'll say it again but with a twist: I don't know and I don't care if there is or is not an American style but if there is one it better not call out for a pair of pants or I will refuse to acknowledge it as an American style. Currently the classic American style is one of an untappered trunk with a one or two root nebari tied in a knot with a couple of knees, really big leaves, no foliage pads, a brightly colored Chinese glazed pot either cracked or intact, no ramification and lots of meaningless wire scars accompanied by an owner who is willing to stand by its side with a loaded gun willing to shoot down anyone with the nerve to criticize it.
 

cbobgo

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that's a pretty harsh assesment Vance, and I'm sure your tongue is firmly in your cheek. I've seen some pretty incredible bonsai in America, whether or not they are considered "American Bonsai."

- bob
 

Vance Wood

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I don't own any Koi at all, I'm too lazy to put fort the kind of effort it takes to keep and maintain a decent pond.

You are correct, my comments were tongue in cheek, but I do have a problem with people producing grade AA certifiable Crapola Dujour as an American style hoping the tag will automatically dispel any and all criticism. Anything that has the tag American Style better be worthy of the title or I am going to be all over it like White on Rice.
 

cbobgo

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yes, I agree. Giving s#it a fancy label doesn't make it smell any better. Which goes back to my first reply - if you are going to talk about a style, you need to be talking about show quality trees, otherwise it doesn't really matter what style a person claims for their stick in a pot.

- bob
 

Dwight

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Vance , your last statement was why I asked the question about Koi. As Master Nut has implied the same thing is happening to koi and it is an American thing. What we call crapgoi are flooding the market and people with NICE ponds buy the things , post them on the web and ask for comments. If anyone ever told the truth they would be banned for sure. I see that on some of the bonsai forumns but not as much. Brings to mind the " sticks in pots " idea of bonsai which is worse than malsai to mew
 
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If anyone ever told the truth they would be banned for sure. I see that on some of the bonsai forumns but not as much.

One must keep in mind that some bonsai forums are out there to bring in income of some sort, which is why you see ads, banners, pop-ups, auctions, or other such things. The experienced bonsaists usually already have resources for materials and seldom, if ever, click on such ads, in fact they often ignore them. It is the beginners who click on such and therefore, the beginner must be catered to, even at the risk of devaluing the forum itself. To these forums, the number of members is all important, not the quality, the more members, the more clicks on the ads.

But this is another subject and leads us from the topic....



Will
 

Dwight

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But this is another subject and leads us from the topic....

Certainly the good/bad of internet forumns is not a worthy subject for discussion ( didn't I say that nice ) but.......... as so often happens with anything adopted by us heatherns we do have a tendency to advance to the lowest level and just stay there. Maybe there are more ametures like me who might never have the taste or talent to produce really goof bonsai here in the USA than in Europe or Japan so our " style " is not determined as much by the true artists . ( Hopefully this makes sense as I'm taking care of my grandaughter today and she is rather distracting )

Dwight
 
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