What is the American style?

[Anonymous User]

That's a good distraction!


Steve Tolley recently quoted an old saying that was, "you are only as good as the best guy in the club" I imagine this can also be said about bonsai forums as well.



Will

 

[Dwight]

Well then you guys are in real trouble with me here

 

[Tachigi]

After a couple of days with this thread I think it can safely be said that no one is sure or wants to know what the American style is or will be. The more I think about it the more I am brought to the conclusion that we will not name what the American style is (that would be to egotistical and self centered) It will be the Japanese, Europeans, Chinese and anyone else that notices or cares outside of the states. They are the ones that will finally label it when they see it. So we must continue to strive for perfection and uniqueness in our trees. That is the ultimate goal.

 

[Graydon]

After a couple of days with this thread I think it can safely be said that no one is sure or wants to know what the American style is or will be. The more I think about it the more I am brought to the conclusion that we will not name what the American style is (that would be to egotistical and self centered) It will be the Japanese, Europeans, Chinese and anyone else that notices or cares outside of the states. They are the ones that will finally label it when they see it. So we must continue to strive for perfection and uniqueness in our trees. That is the ultimate goal.

Bingo! Give this man a prize.

Bonsai is worldwide. Why do we need to keep trying to pigeon hole it? Do the Japanese refer to trees in Japan as "Japanese style"? Do the Chinese call their trees 'Chinese style'? Do we..... need an 'American' style?

 

[cbobgo]

Actually, I think the Chinese do tend to state very emphatically that what they do is different than what the Japanese do. And I imagine that there are quite a few people in Japan who have basically 2 categories - Japanese bonsai and everything else.

I think its quite natural for people to try to divide things into categories to make it easier to understand and identify with. It's also only natural for people to be most proud of their own country and what is made there.

- bob

 

[Graydon]

I'm with you Bob but did you miss my point? I know they identify the style they create as their own and we call it 'Chinese" or 'Japanese' but do they refer to it, either spoke or written as such?

I don't know but would be interested to find out.

 

[Vance Wood]

Think about this one: People don't name their own style, others do. Others who examine the worth, value and content of what another party produces and lumps that work into similar categories from similar back grounds tend to be the assigners of styles and forms.

 

[Brent]

Well, to be truly murrican, we would have to search out our roots and see what forces influence our tree culturing as well as recognize our native species, and our treatment of the environment. For example, I think we should seriously explore the Oregon clearcut stump group planting. We could leave the slash right there on the pot so it could naturally age instead of using that stinky sulfur stuff.

Then there is the Power Line Stub Out form. Of course we wouldn't use real power lines, that would be gauche. The power lines would be suggested by the negative space. Kingsville boxwood would be great for Powerline mame.

Attempts have already been made to mimic the pickup trunk/tree fascination in Crash Bonsai folk art using toy trucks instead of mudmen. This concept should be explored and expanded using miniature double wides and even triple wides that bump up against the nebari which could be shaved off on one side in a faux foundation metaphor. Miniature Bud cans on the Pearlwort lawn would also be a nice touch.

For the more elite, we could represent the modern gated community built on land on which first all the trees are cut down and then replanted with 15 gallon poplars held upright by tidy green stakes. Serissa wired upright could represent the poplars, since both are shortlived and thrive on abuse. Tiny patches of brown liverwort could be created at the bases of the staked trees by a infinitesimal spritz of Roundup. Little McMansions would stand in the background at the end of a white gravel drivway with the edges marked by round 'boulders' sitting on the ground reminescent of glacial moraine.

I could go on, the possibilities are endless, limited only by our imagination and our treatment of our natural haitat. Dang, I forgot to mention the Appalacian Flatop Mountain Coal Mine treatment, with the blackend stream running around the pot and the Seven Eleven achoring the new strip mall at the summit.

Brent
EvergreenGardenworks.com
see our blog at http://BonsaiNurseryman.typepad.com

 

[rlist]

I have been skimming this thread since the inception - but haven't read it in full so what I say might have been covered...

My involvement in bonsai has spanned about 10 years, but I can honestly say the past 2 years have been the only worthwhile time. In those two years I have spent quite a bit of time with Walter, some good time with Hagedorn, and a little time with BSOP, Brent/Dr. Bob, Gustafson, Boon and some of his students (not all at the same time). I have spent a lot of time on Internet forums, have been very involved behind the scenes with Oregon Bonsai, and have had informal conversations with several American students currently apprenticing in Japan. Does that make me an expert or a voice for this topic? Nope...

But, what I see is that America is still developing in the art of bonsai. Here in Portland we have three facets to bonsai - old club members that enjoy going to meetings and playing with little trees and serious upcoming hobbyists and artists (split into two groups). The old timers have mostly been participating in bonsai for a number of years, and are very adept at creating bonsai that look like those in the books of Naka, Gustafson or Tomlinson - for good, bad or indifferent. I see nothing really creative nor original, but they do look like bonsai.

The second group splits into two facets. First, one led by the teaching of Boon and locals such as Scott Elser - and of course the recent addition to the area of Hagedorn - are doing two things. They are taking the art to the highest level & they are heavily inspired by Japanese teachings (though they do have excellent native stock, many are looking at adding Japanese foliage to this native stock). The second group is made up of of individuals that are looking to take American trees to their fullest potential (and keeping these trees native) - working from the teachings of Walter, Boon, Hagedorn and others - and work towards the ultimate in the "naturalistic" style preached by Walter (but excelled upon as well by Boon & Hagedorn in their own ways). We in this group are young, still learning, and are still developing our own niche in this style.

So, today in the Portland area I see 3 distict American styles being practiced - which I think is what has kind of been stated through this thread. That said, I do believe that we are on the verge of creating a dominant style in this area (and hopefully the rest of the country) and the next 5 years will be telling. In all honesty, I think that when the two apprentices return from Japan in 2 & 4 years, it is hoped that one resides in Portland while the other will for sure -this new style will begin to develop. I believe that the material that Oregon Bonsai provides will be combined with the naturalistic style and will receive a tweaking of Japanese influence - I believe this will combine all of these into a sort of melting pot to create and define a style that in time I believe can become the major American Style (which is basically what one group is doing here in Portland right now).

 

[cbobgo]

good laugh there Brent. So we can add "Redneck Bonsai" to pop bonsai and crash bonsai?

- bob

 

[Chris Johnston]

I cringe at these topics and usually avoid them until they are nearly too long to deal with. One point I would like to make is that while Kimura does not "dominate" Japanese bonsai, a careful look at Kokofu books over the last twenty years will show a decided acceleration of the grooming of foliage. Much of this can be attributed to Kimura's exceptional quality of work setting the bar much higher than had been the case.

In many ways, Walter, Boon, Michale Hagedorn, etc., are providing the same kind of impetus to European and American bonsai. The general condition of those products can only come up as a result.

 

[Chris Johnston]

I have said it before and I'll say it again but with a twist: I don't know and I don't care if there is or is not an American style but if there is one it better not call out for a pair of pants or I will refuse to acknowledge it as an American style. Currently the classic American style is one of an untappered trunk with a one or two root nebari tied in a knot with a couple of knees, really big leaves, no foliage pads, a brightly colored Chinese glazed pot either cracked or intact, no ramification and lots of meaningless wire scars accompanied by an owner who is willing to stand by its side with a loaded gun willing to shoot down anyone with the nerve to criticize it.

Well I guess that's what we will see as long as there are judges to give those trees first place prizes!

 

[Jon Chown]

Chris said,
Well I guess that's what we will see as long as there are judges to give those trees first place prizes!

Although there may be a hidden meaning in this statement, I don't automatically blame the judges. Having done a considerable amount of judging myself (Not Bonsai). You must understand that sometimes the best in a catergory is just that - the best at the show at that time, it may not be good but it is the best there is.

Jon

 

[Vance Wood]

Although there may be a hidden meaning in this statement, I don't automatically blame the judges. Having done a considerable amount of judging myself (Not Bonsai). You must understand that sometimes the best in a catergory is just that - the best at the show at that time, it may not be good but it is the best there is.

Jon

I agree with you Jon. Sometimes it is like judging IQ scores with Monty Python's twit corps, the ones that don't slobber might score higher, but there's no guarantee.

 

[irene_b]

I agree with you Jon. Sometimes it is like judging IQ scores with Monty Python's twit corps, the ones that don't slobber might score higher, but there's no guarantee.

I love it!!!!!
Rofl
Irene

 

[Smoke]

ou must understand that sometimes the best in a catergory is just that - the best at the show at that time, it may not be good but it is the best there is.

I don't agree with this statement carte blanche. Each year we have an exhibit of the Hanford Bonsai Society. It is a judged event. We hire a judge to come in from Southern California. He has studied with some of the best as well as being a full time student of John Naka.

Last year my friend entered a cascade tree. It was a pretty good tree. It was good for some other reasons, but they are not inline with this subject. The point was it was the only cascade entered in the division. The tree was awarded third place. There was no first, no second. Heck, there was not even a tree to give them too. The owner of the third place tree questioned the placing of his tree. The judge showed him the score card. He showed him where the tree had fallen flat and where the tree had been good. He said that if there were ten trees in the division he still might have been third, but not first or second. The tree just did not measure up to the rules of the scoreing system.

Giving a tree first, just because there are no other entries kind of defeats the purpose of judging an event. Having even one tree against itself should still measure up on the score card. Heck it might not even get a third if didn't meet the judging criteria.

Smoke

 

[Anonymous User]

Jon said, "You must understand that sometimes the best in a catergory is just that - the best at the show at that time, it may not be good but it is the best there is." I don't see where he said there were no other entries, or am I missing something?

First should always go to the best tree, second to the second best, third to the third best, etc. Simple method which has been used for ages. If the tree is better than all the others (and yes there must be others or it is a shallow victory) than it deserves first, regardless of if the trees last year were better, or if the trees ten years from then will be better.

K.I.S.S.

Politics and jealousy will always play a part, of course, there is no escaping it, it seems. For example, after I won first place (in my class) at a local show last year, one of the club members in the same class came up to me and said, "You bought that tree and entered it this year to win, didn't you?" I simply reminded him that the same tree also took third the year before and referred him to the shows photos as well as my own progression photos.

The sad truth is that some people love to accuse others of not knowing anything or of not having any bonsai, yet, when you produce results the same people switch to crying foul, cheating, buying ringers, judge favoritism, etc.

Shadows do enjoy dancing around the light, don't they?

If some people spent as much time working on their bonsai or positively contributing to the bonsai community as they do worrying about other people, the art of bonsai would no doubt dramatically advance practically overnight.

Imagine that!


Will

 

[agraham]

This is an interesting thread.I don't really agree with Vance that the state of American style bonsai is so bad.I have seen many good bonsai(on the web) by american artists.But,on the otherhand,I have never been to even a club show much less a regional or national one.So,I don't know what kind of trees actually win competitions.I'm very impressed that we actually have show a winning artist on this site.

I wonder how many others of you have ever won a contest with your bonsai?I think it would be a great idea if someone posted some show winning trees.This would obviously show the quality of bonsai grown in America.I realise that some excellent bonsaists probably don't enter their trees in contests(for whatever reasons)....but the people who do enter and win are setting the standard.They are the leaders and inovators of bonsai in America.So let's see some show winners!


andy

 

[Chris Johnston]

Jon said, "You must understand that sometimes the best in a catergory is just that - the best at the show at that time, it may not be good but it is the best there is." I don't see where he said there were no other entries, or am I missing something?

First should always go to the best tree, second to the second best, third to the third best, etc. Simple method which has been used for ages. If the tree is better than all the others (and yes there must be others or it is a shallow victory) than it deserves first, regardless of if the trees last year were better, or if the trees ten years from then will be better.

Will

There are two schools of thought involved in judging like this. Both have been mentioned here. The first is, "It's the best that's here." The second is, "Is it objectively worthy of its placement?"

I can see some value in both, and believe me, any judged show is doing more to advance the quality of the art than any unjudged show. I tend to fall in the objective category, it's just my makeup. What if the only tropical tree in a show is very young, with poor nebari, trunk, movement, taper, and branching? Would that automatically make it the #1 tropical? In one sense of the word, yes. But is that enough to give it a blue ribbon? I don't think so!

Kimura was invited to judge a show in the Pacific northwest some time ago. He did a demostration, etc., and judged the show. I do not know how he judged or what trees won. I do know that after the exhibit, when only the club members had gathered, he had some choice words for the quality of the show. In fact, I heard he "raised his voice" so to speak. In other words, while he judged as he was asked, he let be known in no uncertain terms that the quality was completely unacceptable. I am sure he was embarrassed to be associated with some of the displays.

So do we place the "best that's there" on a pedestal and allow the pride and boasting, or do we judge that a particular tree may be the best that's there, and that ain't saying much?

 

[Anonymous User]

Somebody's got to win, somebody's got to lose, such is the nature of the game. Should the winner of the last Ginko Award return the prize because somewhere out there is a better bonsai? Should the winner of a regional show refuse the prize because there are better bonsai in the world? Should the winner of a club show also refuse the ribbon because somebody on the other side of the state has a better tree?

Let's not be ridiculous.

The winner of a show wins because the judge decided that that tree was the best of the lot. Most club shows are divided up into classes from beginner to master class, the best beginner tree wins, the best master class tree wins, regardless of the quality (or lack of) of the other trees at the show or in the entire world.

Win your club show consistently then go regional and once you have that mastered, go national or world class, sooner or later your talent will fail or shine as your work is put up against better and better bonsai.

To paraphrase Steve Tolley, "you're only as good as the best artist in your club" if there is no challenge for you there, it is time to go regional.

Personally I started in the intermediate class of my club (they wouldn't allow me to start at beginner) a couple years ago. Our club has a policy that once you have won two first place ribbons in your class, you must move up a level. Although I have only won first once (second once and third once) I am willingly moving myself up to advanced class, mainly because I want a bigger challenge, but also because I feel I am ready. To me, it is not about winning, or the ribbons, it is about advancing in the art and the quickest way to advance is to place yourself in a position that assures you need to work hard and learn well to succeed.

As my club is home to the likes of Vance Wood, Nick Keren, George Randall, and Vance Hanna, I have a very long ways to go yet. Going up against these guys will indeed be a rewarding experience, win or lose.


Will