What is the deal with this JM seedling?

[Dkdhej]

Hi, everyone.
We have a big and old Acer palmatum in the garden. Every year it produces hundreds of seedlings that I have just recently started to collect to make bonsais out of them.

Every year you there are some that are quite different from the rest, but this year I found one that really stands out, here are the pics.



It is less than 4 cm tall, about 1.5 inches.

Here is a comparison with other acer palmatum seedlings of the same age (roughly 3-4 months I believe). The strange seedling is the one sitting in the white pot. As you can see it is really small, the leaves are reaaally tiny, and it haves a lot of leaves in a small space, so very small internodes.


It germinated in the middle of the rest of the seedlings, under the canopy of the parent tree. There are no other JM close enough to make me think that it comes from a different tree.

What do you think of it? I was thinking it may be a genetically dwarf JM, product of a mutation, but I have no idea. Has it happened anything similar to any of you with your seedlings?

Thanks in advance.

 

[penumbra]

Time will tell. Just keep it alive and healthy.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Genetic variations or mutations are very possible. But usually those mutations are temporary; for a couple nodes and after that it's back to the usual.
If it stays dwarfed and stunted, then you might be the owner of an interesting cultivar.

I do however have to note that environmental factors can play a huge role in seedling phenotypes (the way they look as a sum of environmental factors and genotype) within the same genotype (the way they're programmed in their DNA). I have cloned a truckload of plants, and to be honest, maybe a couple hundred out of the 0.5 million were exactly the same. The older they got, the more the similarities became obvious.

In general, I would expect most variations in genetics to "smooth out" in six years. That's how long it takes in my garden for epigenetic changes (changes in the DNA expression due to environmental responses) to revert back to normal. If it still looks like this in 6 years, you can fairly assume that it's a genotypical/hardcoded variation.

 

[AlainK]

Do you have, or are there other Acer palmatum cultivars in your neighbourhood ?

A. p. often hybridize, maybe that's why. Anyway, that the kind of find maple fans like me love to find, take good care of the little beast.

 

[Shibui]

Mutations are quite likely from any seed. JM seems to be even more prone to it, possibly the result of thousands of years of selection for different traits.

 

[Shibui]

Cross pollination is also likely to introduce new genes. You know who the mother is but only the bees know the father and they never give away secrets.

I have selected similar seedlings for dwarf traits. Some continue to grow this way, some grow out of it as they get larger and look normal. A couple now alternate between really close nodes and longer more normal growth. After pruning those ones revert to the really close nodes for a season or 2 then start to produce long shoots again. They seem to be difficult to shape and frustrating for bonsai.
Definitely grow this one separately. It may be great for bonsai. It may prove really difficult. It might have really attractive traits as a landscape tree and you will make a fortune on the royalties after you patent the variety. It may have no special features and no-one will be interested. As already stated, only time will tell.

 

[AlainK]

you will make a fortune on the royalties after you patent the variety.

1/ If it is a really very new and interesting variety / cultivar, do you know how to reproduce it (grafting, possibly layering, or cuttind (?)) and make sure that it keeps its "unusual", "new" features - there must be about 1,000 registered J.m. CVs ?
2/ It takes at least ten years to get a "patent" for a plant cultivar.
3/ you want to sell it for profit ? Better have the right business structure.

You may have a very interesting strain worth replicating, but don't think about "royalties", even if it does become a new cultivar. To me, the only way is to associate with a professional, or a public entity, provided that they are interseted and can fund a 10-yr study for a very risky project.

Keep this little monster healthy, make it grow, focus on the tree, not the money.

 

[penumbra]

1/ If it is a really very new and interesting variety / cultivar, do; you know how to reproduce it (grafting) and make sure that it keeps its particularity ?
2/ It takes at least ten years to get a "patent" for a plant cultivar.
3/ you want to sell it for profit ? Better have the right business structure.

You may have a very interesting strain worth replicating, but don't think about "royalties", even if it does become a new cultivar.

This is all very true and it is a conservative assessment.
I have been through this and I waited 8 years to find out the results were not repeatable enough to make it a sound investment.

 

[AlainK]

I have been through this and I waited 8 years to find out the results were not repeatable enough to make it a sound investment.

I hope you kept the little beast.

I have one I must air-layer/take cuttings from : maybe not spectacular, but I just love it

 

[penumbra]

I hope you kept the little beast.

I have one I must air-layer/take cuttings from : maybe not spectacular, but I just love it

Mine was not a JM. It is a variegated viburnum. Still in the ground and about 10 feet tall.
It was found in a site being cleared.
I snagged it from in front of a bulldozer.

 

[Dkdhej]

Hey, everyone.
Thanks a lot for your feedback, I have learnt a lot from all of your answers.
Please excuse my late reply.

For what it´s worth, the little beast (as AlainK calls it) continued growing, and it now has some 4-5 pairs of new leaves. They have the same the growth pattern so you really can´t tell it has grown at all. It is a very, very little beast.
Here is a picture for the curious:

Time will tell. Just keep it alive and healthy.

Thanks, I will do my best. I will make sure to put it in some Penumbra, although, for the moment, with a light cover it quite stands the intense morning and middleday sun we are having these days in Madrid.

Genetic variations or mutations are very possible. But usually those mutations are temporary; for a couple nodes and after that it's back to the usual.
If it stays dwarfed and stunted, then you might be the owner of an interesting cultivar.

I do however have to note that environmental factors can play a huge role in seedling phenotypes (the way they look as a sum of environmental factors and genotype) within the same genotype (the way they're programmed in their DNA). I have cloned a truckload of plants, and to be honest, maybe a couple hundred out of the 0.5 million were exactly the same. The older they got, the more the similarities became obvious.

In general, I would expect most variations in genetics to "smooth out" in six years. That's how long it takes in my garden for epigenetic changes (changes in the DNA expression due to environmental responses) to revert back to normal. If it still looks like this in 6 years, you can fairly assume that it's a genotypical/hardcoded variation.

For the moment the growth pattern has not changed. We will see if at some point it goes back to the ordinary, I will keep you updated.
Thank you for your answer! That temporal indication is very useful. I wonder what is the reason behind being 6 years the time when they smooth out, seems very interesting to me. Is those 6 years a valid time frame for every species in your garden that you have seen their epigenetic changes smoothed out? Or are some faster and some slower?
For what I have observed, nothing leds me to believe this is due to enviromental factors (phenotype) and not to genetics (genotype). Specially, due to the fact that seedlings are the fruit of sexual reproduction which is a source of genetic change, and that this seedling was in the same spot as several hundreds others. I could not appreciate, nor can I think of, something affecting this seedling and not any of the others, being so close one to each other. I guess some insect or bacteria or fungus could have easily affected it, but then, why not any more of the others?

Do you have, or are there other Acer palmatum cultivars in your neighbourhood ?

A. p. often hybridize, maybe that's why. Anyway, that the kind of find maple fans like me love to find, take good care of the little beast.

Oh, absolutely, you are right. I was very obtuse of me to not think of that. I have not seen many JM in the neighborhood, I know of 2 of them at a cross-pollination distance, but I am sure there are plenty more of them. Thanks again, I will do my best.

Cross pollination is also likely to introduce new genes. You know who the mother is but only the bees know the father and they never give away secrets.

I have selected similar seedlings for dwarf traits. Some continue to grow this way, some grow out of it as they get larger and look normal. A couple now alternate between really close nodes and longer more normal growth. After pruning those ones revert to the really close nodes for a season or 2 then start to produce long shoots again. They seem to be difficult to shape and frustrating for bonsai.
Definitely grow this one separately. It may be great for bonsai. It may prove really difficult. It might have really attractive traits as a landscape tree and you will make a fortune on the royalties after you patent the variety. It may have no special features and no-one will be interested. As already stated, only time will tell.

Thank you. Yes, I realize that when treating with tree species one needs a lot of time and patience before knowing what is really happening with a seedling. But I am learning a lot with all your answers, that alternation of close and long nodes seems really peculiar. Do you have any tips to keep it alive and healthy? I have no experience with JM of dwarf cultivars or with dwarf traits. Thanks again.
I already have it separately and I will keep close watch to see how it comes forward.

 

[Dkdhej]

Forgot to reply some messages

1/ If it is a really very new and interesting variety / cultivar, do you know how to reproduce it (grafting, possibly layering, or cuttind (?)) and make sure that it keeps its "unusual", "new" features - there must be about 1,000 registered J.m. CVs ?
2/ It takes at least ten years to get a "patent" for a plant cultivar.
3/ you want to sell it for profit ? Better have the right business structure.

You may have a very interesting strain worth replicating, but don't think about "royalties", even if it does become a new cultivar. To me, the only way is to associate with a professional, or a public entity, provided that they are interseted and can fund a 10-yr study for a very risky project.

Keep this little monster healthy, make it grow, focus on the tree, not the money.

I will try my best.
For the moment all I want is to learn from this plant, to see how it goes on and have fun. Of course, if it ends up showing some nice traits I would be interested in making some clones and sharing it. But for now I absolutely have no expectations of making money out of it

Mine was not a JM. It is a variegated viburnum. Still in the ground and about 10 feet tall.
It was found in a site being cleared.
I snagged it from in front of a bulldozer.

A variegated Viburnum sounds beautiful, I can only hope that mine turns out to be similarly interesting.

Here is another pic which shows what could end up being its first couple of branches. So many leaves and still doesn´t raise any taller than 4 cm or 1.5 inches.

 

[Pitoon]

If I had to guess I would say it looks like a hybrid. Cool find!

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

For the moment the growth pattern has not changed. We will see if at some point it goes back to the ordinary, I will keep you updated.
Thank you for your answer! That temporal indication is very useful. I wonder what is the reason behind being 6 years the time when they smooth out, seems very interesting to me. Is those 6 years a valid time frame for every species in your garden that you have seen their epigenetic changes smoothed out? Or are some faster and some slower?
For what I have observed, nothing leds me to believe this is due to enviromental factors (phenotype) and not to genetics (genotype). Specially, due to the fact that seedlings are the fruit of sexual reproduction which is a source of genetic change, and that this seedling was in the same spot as several hundreds others. I could not appreciate, nor can I think of, something affecting this seedling and not any of the others, being so close one to each other. I guess some insect or bacteria or fungus could have easily affected it, but then, why not any more of the others?

Some are faster, some are slower to smooth out. 6-8 years is usually when plants reach adulthood, so after that their genetics are usually set for the most part, with a very realistic possibility of ongoing adaptation. This is a broad generalization though. It depends a whole lot on the genetic composition, even the amount of G's and C's in the code can affect it. Some species of plants are more adaptable than others, some have smaller or larger genomes, some have way less parental differences because their populations have always been small and there is little variation in those populations.
6-8 years also is usually the max limit of keeping herbaceous plants being identical to year 1. After that, things start changing and drifting towards either one of the parents. The oldest cannabis plant (an annual) I've owned for instance, was 6 years old. Every year it looked different than the year before. In the last year it lost the ability to make roots, probably due to telomere shortening. This however is hard to verify without genetic studies - you'd need cells from the first year - over time huge parts of DNA can quite literally flip around without loss of function, so a rooting function that was in the center, can potentially end up at the tail of a chromosome.

Bacterial, viral and fungal factors should all be considered when judging phenotypes, especially with wildtype hybrids where you can't exactly be sure if the plant is resistant to a fungus, virus of bacterium. It's even hard to tell if you do know resistance features. Some viruses can lay dormant, or only affect tiny parts of a plants developmental cycle. Seedlings can have a lot of variations, so it's hard to say exactly why other seedlings don't express the same phenotype, it's also hard to tell why they aren't affected.

From what I'm seeing, your plant is really showing lateral dominance. This makes me think that there is a possibility that herbicides might be involved. Some modern and oldschool herbicides attack auxin functions in plants, basically flipping a switch and turning it off. This can lead to dwarfisms and very bushy trees. It is however, speculative. I like speculation, but I don't want to make things more cloudy than they should be, by dragging in all kinds of theories.

Summarized: it's hard to tell exactly why, how or what causes this. But it'd be interesting to watch develop!

 

[penumbra]

Looks great. I will reserve any speculation at this time.

 

[Forsoothe!]

I'm not seeing a JM. I see some kind of herbaceous plant.

 

[penumbra]

I'm not seeing a JM. I see some kind of herbaceous plant.

It does look that way but I hope you are wrong.
I didn't want to say it.

 

[ajm55555]

Chernobyl?

 

[Dkdhej]

Some are faster, some are slower to smooth out. 6-8 years is usually when plants reach adulthood, so after that their genetics are usually set for the most part, with a very realistic possibility of ongoing adaptation. This is a broad generalization though. It depends a whole lot on the genetic composition, even the amount of G's and C's in the code can affect it. Some species of plants are more adaptable than others, some have smaller or larger genomes, some have way less parental differences because their populations have always been small and there is little variation in those populations.
6-8 years also is usually the max limit of keeping herbaceous plants being identical to year 1. After that, things start changing and drifting towards either one of the parents. The oldest cannabis plant (an annual) I've owned for instance, was 6 years old. Every year it looked different than the year before. In the last year it lost the ability to make roots, probably due to telomere shortening. This however is hard to verify without genetic studies - you'd need cells from the first year - over time huge parts of DNA can quite literally flip around without loss of function, so a rooting function that was in the center, can potentially end up at the tail of a chromosome.

Bacterial, viral and fungal factors should all be considered when judging phenotypes, especially with wildtype hybrids where you can't exactly be sure if the plant is resistant to a fungus, virus of bacterium. It's even hard to tell if you do know resistance features. Some viruses can lay dormant, or only affect tiny parts of a plants developmental cycle. Seedlings can have a lot of variations, so it's hard to say exactly why other seedlings don't express the same phenotype, it's also hard to tell why they aren't affected.

From what I'm seeing, your plant is really showing lateral dominance. This makes me think that there is a possibility that herbicides might be involved. Some modern and oldschool herbicides attack auxin functions in plants, basically flipping a switch and turning it off. This can lead to dwarfisms and very bushy trees. It is however, speculative. I like speculation, but I don't want to make things more cloudy than they should be, by dragging in all kinds of theories.

Summarized: it's hard to tell exactly why, how or what causes this. But it'd be interesting to watch develop!

Thanks a lot. Now I have a better grasp of the complexity of it all.
I don´t think we have ever used herbicides ourselves. I guess we will have to wait those 6-8 years to see.

I'm not seeing a JM. I see some kind of herbaceous plant.

That is also a possibility, although in my opinion it quite looks like a bizarre JM. We´ll see. Thanks!