What is the optimal timing for re-injuring a scar on JM?

base797

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Ive got a few maples that are recovering from major branch removal within the last couple years and I am wondering when the very best time is to re-injure those scars and seal with cut paste. Last year I did it after the new growth hardened off and the results were pretty good. Also, I assume buds/branches will never emerge from the healed over areas without a graft, is that correct? The maples in question are an arakawa, trident, sharps pygmy, standard green, and a coral bark. Thanks.

Patrik
 

vaibatron

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As soon as they start pushing buds is my favorite. They will heal fine as long as you cover them.
 

base797

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Thanks guys. Guess I'm most interested in some science behind the answers. I know it works essentially any time during the growing season and it makes sense to take advantage of the longest period of recovery (by doing it very early in the spring), but as far as energy, sap flow, auxins, etc then in kind of makes sense to do it after growth hardens off. Anyone got some horticultural opinions?

Also, anyone ever seen a bud/shoot/limb emerge from an area that has healed over? Doesn't seem possible that latent buds would form there. I also assume a thread graft or approach graft would take though?

I guess since already posting, I'm doing a couple air layers on one of the maples (arakawa) too, any effect concerning the layer or healing over?

I got the conifers pretty dialed in, but still learning deciduous trees.

Patrik
 

base797

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Oso, huh, really? You think just let em do their thing? Since I was hoping for some horticultural reasoning for timing, what's your thoughts on why to not do it? It seems proven in my experience, but no data actually accumulated. I've read many of your posts and it seems you're actually very pensive and educated concerning horticulture, so I am psyched to hear from you.

Patrik
 

Adair M

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Regardless of whether you re-injure them to promote healing, the best mechanism for healing (and they don't really heal - they callous over) is to let a sacrifice branch higher on the tree grow unimpeded.

Callous tissue does not have buds.

You can graft onto callous tissue.
 

0soyoung

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Oso, huh, really? You think just let em do their thing? Since I was hoping for some horticultural reasoning for timing, what's your thoughts on why to not do it? It seems proven in my experience, but no data actually accumulated. I've read many of your posts and it seems you're actually very pensive and educated concerning horticulture, so I am psyched to hear from you.

You cast the bait and I bite :eek:.

Just think it though about how a tree grows. There is a layer of 'stem' cells called the vascular cambium that divides to produce (radial) growth - most differentiate into xylem (inside the line of cambium cells) and some to phloem or inner bark (outside the line of cambium cells). Of course phloem ends up mixed with cork cells and eventually dies to make bark. Until then there's an epidermal covering.

Sever the line of cambium cells and it re-establishes this order - we in bonsai and arborists call this new epidermis a lip or 'callus'. This 'lip' becomes curved. The layer of cambium curves likewise, just below the surface. As this cambium does its thing, new wood is created to the inside of this curve and new phloem closer to the surface. The lip is said to 'roll' across the surface, but all the motion is happening by simply adding bricks (xylem and phloem) to the edge of the wall. It does not roll. It does not slide or push across.

So Lindsay Far says the lip gets caught up or somesuch and that one needs to (as you said) 're-injure the scar'. This 're-injury' amounts to cutting off some of the epidermis, cambium and xylem behind it. Seems perfectly obvious that this is just taking a step backwards. You've removed recently formed tissue and now have to go through that whole process of forming callus and then grow again that tissue you just removed before any progress is to again be made. That is, unless this damage leads to some kind of enhanced growth. In my thread "regarding-wound-healing" I did this in a systematic way and this is indeed how things behaved and there was no enhanced growth.

Digressing, wood or more precisely, cellulose, is just a sugar polymer. Sugars are the product of photosynthesis which are carried down the tree from the foliage toward the roots in the phloem. So, IMHO, the real secret of wound 'healing' is somehow steering the flow of sugars to the callus/lip. Just 're-injuring' won't change the flow in a productive way. Of that much, I am certain (which really isn't much, really). Getting a bud pop from the branch collar of your lopped off branch is a big help - a supply of sugars right where you need it. Barring that, grafting can add a supply of sugars to the tissues below the graft point (presumably where its needed). Arborists have shown that carving inverted tear drop shapes on trunks at branch pruning wounds helps - I don't understand why works, but really would like to so that I could apply that to my problems.

Since I am running on, there are a pair (or a group) of special cambium cells at the tip of every shoot (as well as the tip of every root) called the 'apical meristem'. The division of these cells produce shoot/root elongation and have a complex do-loop of auxin activity that periodically produces an auxin pulse. This pulse results in another special group of vascular cambium cells that can become apical meristems (buds) when given the right conditions sometime in the future - latent buds. This growth event marks a node. When the apical meristem is removed (aka shoot decapitation), the distal buds are released = why we prune branches a roots to ramify them. Anyway, the key point for your inquiry is that the cellular structures to produce bud are only made by apical meristems. Hence 'scar tissue' of the sort you are asking, will be barren/bud-less for ever and ever because there is no apical meristem involved in the process (just lateral/vascular/secondary cambium).

How's that for pedantry? :eek:
This is how one makes Geek foie gras :D

BTW, how is dear ol' CU and Boulder?
 
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Adair M

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Oso, all that sounds reasonable... Except... I have seen scars seem to "stall out" on the healing. And scraping a bit of the bark off restimulate the callous tissue growth.

Again, I'm not a botanist, but I've observed that gor the trees that callous over wounds, callous tissue grows faster than normal trunk or branch tissue. On Zelkova for example, it can produce a sizable knob over what was once a concave wound! Sometimes, the tree stops producing the fast growing callous tissue and reverts back to producing regular growth. I don't know why. But it appears that the tree is no longer stimulated to produce callous tissue even though the wound has not completely been covered with callous. Maybe the bark has become thick enough that the tree doesn't "perceive" the wound anymore? I don't know.

But, a light scrape removing the bark will deactivate the wound response and rapid callous growth will resume. You don't have to remove a lot to do this, so it does indeed work. It's not always necessary. Sometimes the fast growing callous tissue grows until it covers the wound with no additional stimulation needed. Sometimes a little scrape is necessary.

Just my opinion based upon my anecdotal experience.
 

Adair M

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Oops, the first sentence of the third paragraph should read "But a light scrape removing the bark will REACTIVATE the wound response..."

Gotta love the Apple spell check!
 

base797

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Oso, great, thorough reply and I am almost convinced. Your explanation makes perfect logical sense. The only thing holding me back is (some perceived at least) past experiences. I concur that by scratching the callus, we are removing some of the accumulated tissue/building blocks, but as Adair alluded to, I have noticed some calluses seem to stall out prior to completely healing over and are reinvigorated by by stimulation/removal of a modicum of tissue.

Perhaps the overview/lesson here would be that, if it's progressing on its own, leave it alone. If it stalls, a little stimulus may be in order? Do you concur that a callus can stall out? And, that a stalled callus may need some encouragement to get going again?

Thanks for asking about Boulder. Typical spring so far, following a rather warm winter. By typical, I mean I have been moving roughly a hundred (many small in trays, but 20+ are individually moved), in and out of the garage for about a month already. Last week, it was 73 degrees and that night we got 2 feet of snow. Did you live here for a time, go to CU? I moved here after attending Penn State to take year off and rock climb, skydive and BASE jumping. Turns out, I got stuck here after a short hiatus back east.

Adair, thanks for chiming in. I appreciate all your posts, opinions and I tend to agree with what you have to convey.

Good stuff.

Patrik
 

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Thanks Osoyoung that's a very savvy answer. Not pedantic, just very informative.

From my experience, pruning done when the tree is active (say mid-April at the earliest here) is much better, scars heal a lot faster than when done in autumn of late winter.

Leaving at least one "sacrifice branch", for instance a leader that will later be cut back, also helps for what I know.
 

coh

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Nice bark on that tree!

Problem with these kinds of discussions is, how do you prove what you are saying? I've seen trees where the callusing process seemed to stall, so I've scraped the edge of the callus and covered with cut paste...and the healing resumed. But how can I say for sure that the healing wasn't going to resume regardless of what I did? Other times, scraping did not seem to speed things up.

I've scratched/covered the callus at different times during the growing season and honestly, haven't seen much difference in the results. Many trees seem to do a lot of their trunk swelling later in the season but that might depend on species.
 
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base797

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Drew, thanks. It is in the back, but you probably know how it is, we all want our trees to look good from every angle.

Coh, thank you. Indeed, very hard to quantify. Damn trees, complicated.

Patrik
 

0soyoung

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I have seen scars seem to "stall out" on the healing. ...
Perhaps the overview/lesson here would be that, if it's progressing on its own, leave it alone. If it stalls, a little stimulus may be in order? Do you concur that a callus can stall out?
I have noticed some calluses seem to stall out prior to completely healing over and are reinvigorated by by stimulation/removal of a modicum of tissue.
.
I certainly could acknowledge ya'lls experience, but I honestly have yet to see persuasive evidence that this does in fact happen. I've also read of Nick Lenz advice to cover wounds with Vasaline and aluminum foil. I've seen Owen removing aluminum foil from a pruning wound that is (drum roll) 'healed!' in at least one Bjorn's episodes. I've read Peter Tea's blog and seen his photos of carving the callus off branch pruning wounds on tridents and how they are completely healed in the next season's photos. But I've never seen any such effects first hand, nor have I seen anybody else present naysayer evidence. For a while I thought I understood how this would work as a damage response and I experimented for a couple of seasons with applications of a plant growth regulator, but it was to no avail. So I continue to wonder why do people believe this, how would this work given what I know about trees, why don't I see what they all say, etc.

Let me ask, Patrik, the wound in your photo above: the right side of the wound appears to be 'stalled'. As I understand what 'everybody' claims to happen, were you to re-injure the right side and slather it in cut paste it should then catch up with the left side of the wound - right? If so, might you do this (later when the tree is in leaf) and let us all see what happens by the end of this season?

Many trees seem to do a lot of their trunk swelling later in the season but that might depend on species.
This is a general characteristic of temperate trees. It was part of the results I presented in three of my tedious set of 'Repotting' experiments:
Douglas fir Repotting Experiment, Lodgepole Pine Repotting Experiment, and Zelkova Repotting Experiment.

Since the 'healing' dynamics are fundamentally the same as those of stem thickening, we're likely to see that the pace of closure peaks not long after the summer solstice. Something like one half to two thirds of the total seasonal increment is added after 'the 4th of July' or after 'Fathers' Day'.
 

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From my experience, pruning done when the tree is active (say mid-April at the earliest here) is much better, scars heal a lot faster than when done in autumn of late winter.

Leaving at least one "sacrifice branch", for instance a leader that will later be cut back, also helps for what I know.

I agree completely.
 

0soyoung

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Thanks for asking about Boulder. Typical spring so far, following a rather warm winter. By typical, I mean I have been moving roughly a hundred (many small in trays, but 20+ are individually moved), in and out of the garage for about a month already. Last week, it was 73 degrees and that night we got 2 feet of snow. Did you live here for a time, go to CU? I moved here after attending Penn State to take year off and rock climb, skydive and BASE jumping. Turns out, I got stuck here after a short hiatus back east.
I grew up in eastern CO and am very familiar with the climate patterns. When I was a kid, January was always two weeks of 60-ishF highs and two weeks of -20F and it changed in one day. I am a CU alum.
If you've got to be stuck somewhere, that is a nice, nice place to be stuck! :cool: If I weren't now living in paradise, I'd be envious. :)
 

base797

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Thanks Oso. You really know your stuff and I am excited to check out that Doug fir experiment because I have many. One I have is world class and took 5 years to collect (chasing roots back towards the trunk by scarring heavy root, rooting hormone, spaghnum applications and delivering fertilizer several times each year).

Alright, you've pretty much convinced me. Since we have the opportunity that you suggest, I will injure the right side of that wound and then revisit later in the year.

Thanks again.

Patrik
 
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