sorce
Nonsense Rascal
It definitely isn't all created equal either....
What size though?
Brand?
Sorce
What size though?
Brand?
Sorce
The only experience I have with it is with a couple of bougies that were already potted in it. The pots were rather deep, and it just stayed to wet for too long for a plant that likes things on the drier side. Best to listen to the others with more experience using it with different trees and a climate similar to yours.I'm still new so I don't know how well its working for my plants (they survived and grew some last summer, yay!) but in your opinion do you think a dry climate like mine (Colorado) might benefit from how wet 8822 is? Or is humidity not really a factor at all? We average <50% humidity year round. 8822 seems to be the cheapest option so that's why I like it, but also been thinking about giving that Stall Dry stuff a try too, or mixing them.
8822 seems to be the cheapest option so that's why I like it, but also been thinking about giving that Stall Dry stuff a try too, or mixing them.
I’m reading thru all these posts and thinking to myself: “why does everyone try to make this so hard?”
I really don’t get it...
My basic mix is APL
Quality soil is a key to success. Inorganic soil reduces the risk of root rot. Having soil properly seived promotes a fibrous root system with lots of healthy feeder roots. A tree with a healthy root system can withstand the intense pruning, wiring, and fertilizing that we subject these trees to. Trying to save money by using inferior soils is false economy. Strong roots creates a strong tree.I think people probably overthink soil, but cost can be a factor. All three of the main components in Boon mix can be pretty expensive, depending on where the buyer lives. So, I think at least *some* people are looking for cheaper alternatives, or products that they can buy locally without paying for shipping.
The rest is tinkering for fun or adjusting for different climates and watering habits.
Inorganic soil reduces the risk of root rot.
I’m not really sure, but I have some theories. I just know that it happens, that is, without the organics in the soil, roots stay healthier.How?
Personally, I don’t use anything smaller than 1/4” particle size in my soil, especially trees in development. For trees in refinement, I’ll mix in a 1/8”-1/4” fraction, but few of my trees on at that stage. For me, finer soil than that creates feathery, fine feeder roots that are not helpful for building root structure and nebari development. It’s not just a matter of whether the tree will live in the soil. Roots just grow differently in a fine substrate than a coarse one. It’s because the pore size is small when the grain size gets small. If the pore size is small, then the roots are small too. Compare:
Grown in a coarse grained soil (1/4” to 3/8”)
View attachment 283406
Grown in a fine grained soil (1/16” to 1/8”)
View attachment 283408
The first is a good root system. The second one is horrible, but often mistaken for being good because there are a lot of feeder roots. In fact, you can let this tree grow in this substrate forever and you’ll likely never get a very good nebari or root system out of it. The goal is to make a bonsai, not to find the cheapest soil a tree can survive in. I’ve bought a bag of 8822 looking to experiment with it before - the problem was that the ENTIRE bag (100%) went through the 1/4” sieve. I didn’t use any of it. I have no doubt that trees will live in it. I’m waiting for someone to show me a good bonsai with a well developed root system using it. That I’ve never seen.
- Scott
Do you find that trees in coarser soil require more frequent watering (especially in Texas)? Or is that more determined by the water holding capacity of the components themselves?
You're right that DE is ALL smaller than 1/4" Here is a breakdown and after sifting a dozen or more bags, I have found this to be consistent.
The 1/8” and larger fraction would be fine for a top dressing if you use it. I always have plenty of extra in that size range just from seiving my soil components though and don’t need any more. I just sold 40 galllons of it that I would never use.
Thanks a lot for your answers! Can I ask one more? What components do you use in your mix?
I'm thinking pine bark chips and lava rock would both be easy to get in 1/4” to 3/8” size, but turface, 8822, and my source of pumice are all smaller than 1/4" making me wonder what else might be used in a mix. I know a nursery that sells Akadama, but I'll have to check if they have the medium grain or just the small grain.
I’m reading thru all these posts and thinking to myself: “why does everyone try to make this so hard?”
I really don’t get it...
My basic mix is APL, which I can fine tune a bit by adding more pumice or akadama to make it less or more water retentive if I feel the need to do so. If some REALLY needs mire water retention I can add a layer of orchid moss spaghnum to the surface. I grow in full sun, in Georgia.
I use a slow release organic fertilizer with occasional doses of fish emulsion.
I’m not trying to perform rocket science! Just grow some trees!
Deciduous, conifer, really doesn’t matter. They all get the same stuff! Except azalea, which gets straight Kanuma.
I think my results speak for themselves. Keep it simple!
Nothing about bonsai is “convenient”, Leo!Why not just use Akadama, pumice & lava?
Now a days, I use this mix more often. But when I started with bonsai, it was simple. NONE of these were available locally. Everything had to be purchased at only one opportunity per year. Every August, I would have to guess what I needed for the entire year, and purchase it at the Bonsai Show at the Chicago Botanic Garden. If I ran out, there was no other source. Mail ordering "dirt" is incredibly expensive. It is a bit cheaper now, but really is quite expensive.
Second, I can not read Japanese. The Akadama I've purchased over the last 40 years has been all over the map, from soft crap that turns to sandy clay mush after the first frost in autumn, to really nice particles, that delight me with how well the particles hold up and my trees seem to like. And I have never figured out which Brands are "good quality". And I could not rely on vendors, because if you didn't get to the Bonsai Show in August before 10 am on Saturday, vendor after vendor would be sold out of Akadama. I used to get good Akadama from Jim Doyle, if I could get to him before he was sold out.
Jump forward 30 years, in the last 10 years, BC Bonsai, and Hidden Gardens opened in the "greater Chicagoland area". But both of the are more than an hour drive away. I'm half way between Chicago and Milwaukee, both are in the south and west suburbs of Chicago. Round trip to Hidden Gardens is about 100 miles, round trip to BC Bonsai is about 125 miles. This is not convenient, if you run out in the middle of repotting on a Sunday afternoon. But today this situation is MUCH better than it was for the first 30 years I grew bonsai.
And this scenario is what MOST people scattered across the country encounter when trying to figure out "bonsai". If you are not near one of the "hot spots" for the Bonsai Hobby, getting Akadama requires expensive mail order, and logistical planning. When as a newbie you have no experience with the "Benefits of Akadama", you think all those crowing about it are completely daft. And having encountered low quality, soft, crappy Akadama that even turns to mush in your storage shed, it is a miracle I ever tried Akadama a second time.
Today I always keep a bag of Akadama on hand, but it is still too expensive to use on much of my pre-bonsai stock.
As to lava and pumice, I figured out how to get pumice. A couple buddies from Milwaukee went in together and we boutght 3 pallets of bags, I still have enough to get through this year in the back yard. Sourcing issues for pumice when you live east of the Mississippi are difficult, but not as difficult as sourcing Akadama and Kanuma. You have to be really "sold" on how effective they are to make it worth the effort.
Last, over my 40 years of stumbling around in the wilderness, where there were no Akadama Stores, I learned you can grow a "pretty okay" tree without ever resorting to Akadama. Yes, Akadama is good stuff, but it aint the only stuff out there. You can grow a decent tree without using Akadama. I learned that within 25 miles of where I live I can source everything I need for growing a "pretty okay" tree without having to use Akadama, pumice or lava. I like APL, but none of them are convenient in terms of being less than a one hour round trip away from the house.
Nothing about bonsai is “convenient”, Leo!
There are no Akadama R Us stores! Few places to buy bonsai stock, tools, or pots. That is just all part of the journey.
Here in the Atlanta area, several of us band together every couple years to bring in pallets of akadama, Clay King, pumice, etc.
I agree. I’ve always said that a 50/50 lava/pumice mix will do well. The akadama is icing on the cake.Sure, I understand that, and have developed my own network over the years. Today I can get Akadama, pretty much with a 2 hour round trip any day of the week. And I do get it when I feel I need it.
BUT the requirement to do this sort of hustling to get "Japanese Dirt" when we have plenty of "dirt" here in North America IS THE REASON, so many spend so much time and energy looking for alternatives. I live in an area where we have 3 bonsai clubs in a metro area with about 11 million people. (7 counties in Illinois and 4 counties in Wisconsin, all pretty much one continuous urban-suburban sprawl. Only a scattering of farms across this region. Mostly suburban and or urban. If finding supplies in this area is a chore, image what the majority of bonsai hobby growers have to go through for the rest of the country.
Don't discount the barrier this requirement to hustle to get Akadama places on most of us in the hobby. Not everyone is as social as yourself or myself. For some putting together a group purchase of pumice or Akadama is a barrier too high.
I don't discount using products other than Akadama, It is possible to produce a "pretty okay" to "great" tree without Akadama.
I’m with Adair here. I’ve been using APL for quite some time now and my trees are better for it. Likewise, I use more akadama in my deciduous trees for more water retention. I tried the Turface thing (although it’s quite difficult to find out here in CA) but wasn’t impressed due to the particle shape and lack of porosity. I even tried some kitty litters with marginal results. Ultimately, APL works the best for me and any additional cost is well worth it if my trees are healthy (I haven’t lost a tree in years. Knock on wood ) and given regular feeding they absolutely thrive.I’m reading thru all these posts and thinking to myself: “why does everyone try to make this so hard?”
I really don’t get it...
My basic mix is APL, which I can fine tune a bit by adding more pumice or akadama to make it less or more water retentive if I feel the need to do so. If some REALLY needs mire water retention I can add a layer of orchid moss spaghnum to the surface. I grow in full sun, in Georgia.
I use a slow release organic fertilizer with occasional doses of fish emulsion.
I’m not trying to perform rocket science! Just grow some trees!
Deciduous, conifer, really doesn’t matter. They all get the same stuff! Except azalea, which gets straight Kanuma.
I think my results speak for themselves. Keep it simple!
.... it doesn’t make sense to try and save a few extra bucks by buying kitty litter and oil absorbent when that could mean root rot and death of your tree.