What is your favorite soil to use and why?

sorce

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It definitely isn't all created equal either....

What size though?

Brand?

Sorce
 

Carol 83

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I'm still new so I don't know how well its working for my plants (they survived and grew some last summer, yay!) but in your opinion do you think a dry climate like mine (Colorado) might benefit from how wet 8822 is? Or is humidity not really a factor at all? We average <50% humidity year round. 8822 seems to be the cheapest option so that's why I like it, but also been thinking about giving that Stall Dry stuff a try too, or mixing them.
The only experience I have with it is with a couple of bougies that were already potted in it. The pots were rather deep, and it just stayed to wet for too long for a plant that likes things on the drier side. Best to listen to the others with more experience using it with different trees and a climate similar to yours.
 

GrampaMoses

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8822 seems to be the cheapest option so that's why I like it, but also been thinking about giving that Stall Dry stuff a try too, or mixing them.

Be very careful. "Dry Stall" and "Stall Dry" are two completely different products. Dry Stall is made of pumice, but the 2 bags I went through were a fairly small particle size. Stall Dry is calcium montmorillonite clay, which I've never used, but probably similar to Turface.

As someone else said, 8822 should be sifting to get rid of anything smaller than 1/16" or 2mm. You end up throwing away about a third of the bag (or using it for ground growing bonsai/seedlings/cuttings/etc) Mixing it is a great idea and exactly what I do. I use 1:1:1 of 8822:pumice:lava rock. It's a non akadama version of Boon's mix.

If you can't find Dry Stall, which was very hard for me to locate. Look for a hydroponics store (should be easy to find in CO) and ask for a bag of Mother Earth Volcanite Premium Pumice. The particle size is more varied than Dry Stall and includes some smaller and some larger particles, but still requires very little sifting or waste.
 

canoeguide

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I’m reading thru all these posts and thinking to myself: “why does everyone try to make this so hard?”

I really don’t get it...

My basic mix is APL

I think people probably overthink soil, but cost can be a factor. All three of the main components in Boon mix can be pretty expensive, depending on where the buyer lives. So, I think at least *some* people are looking for cheaper alternatives, or products that they can buy locally without paying for shipping.

The rest is tinkering for fun or adjusting for different climates and watering habits.
 

Adair M

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I think people probably overthink soil, but cost can be a factor. All three of the main components in Boon mix can be pretty expensive, depending on where the buyer lives. So, I think at least *some* people are looking for cheaper alternatives, or products that they can buy locally without paying for shipping.

The rest is tinkering for fun or adjusting for different climates and watering habits.
Quality soil is a key to success. Inorganic soil reduces the risk of root rot. Having soil properly seived promotes a fibrous root system with lots of healthy feeder roots. A tree with a healthy root system can withstand the intense pruning, wiring, and fertilizing that we subject these trees to. Trying to save money by using inferior soils is false economy. Strong roots creates a strong tree.

I’ve been using Boon Mix (APL) ever since I started taking classes with him, and my trees have been far stronger and healthier than they were before. If there is any such thing as a “Secret to Success” in bonsai, APL is It. The only thing wrong with it is it’s not a secret! Lol!!!

The part that’s expensive is the akadama. Because of the shipping. If you can’t find it, or it’s just too expensive, just use a mix of pumice and lava. And water more often, or put a layer of orchid moss on top (not IN the soil) of the soil if you need more water retention. Roots don’t need organic soil. I DO use organic fertilizer.
 

markyscott

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Personally, I don’t use anything smaller than 1/4” particle size in my soil, especially trees in development. For trees in refinement, I’ll mix in a 1/8”-1/4” fraction, but few of my trees on at that stage. For me, finer soil than that creates feathery, fine feeder roots that are not helpful for building root structure and nebari development. It’s not just a matter of whether the tree will live in the soil. Roots just grow differently in a fine substrate than a coarse one. It’s because the pore size is small when the grain size gets small. If the pore size is small, then the roots are small too. Compare:

Grown in a coarse grained soil (1/4” to 3/8”)
B9CE5466-5DBB-4BFC-935A-995BC990F452.jpeg

Grown in a fine grained soil (1/16” to 1/8”)
96C65684-065B-4496-B010-A15D22614014.jpeg

The first is a good root system. The second one is horrible, but often mistaken for being good because there are a lot of feeder roots. In fact, you can let this tree grow in this substrate forever and you’ll likely never get a very good nebari or root system out of it. The goal is to make a bonsai, not to find the cheapest soil a tree can survive in. I’ve bought a bag of 8822 looking to experiment with it before - the problem was that the ENTIRE bag (100%) went through the 1/4” sieve. I didn’t use any of it. I have no doubt that trees will live in it. I’m waiting for someone to show me a good bonsai with a well developed root system using it. That I’ve never seen.

- Scott
 

Adair M

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I’m not really sure, but I have some theories. I just know that it happens, that is, without the organics in the soil, roots stay healthier.

Organics can trap too much water and at the same time prevent oxygen from getting in. The water is trapped, and doesn’t flow. Thus the anaerobic bacteria take over. And this leads to dead (rotting) roots.

The typical inorganic soil keeps draining, and as water percolates down thru the soil, it carries with it a fresh supply of oxygen.

Mind you, I’m not a biologist, nor am I a soil scientist. I can only relay anecdotal evidence from my own (and friend’s) trees who are also using inorganic soil. I see pines with great root systems with mychorrazae. Maples and elms with tons of feeder roots. And virtually every other species, too.
 

GrampaMoses

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Personally, I don’t use anything smaller than 1/4” particle size in my soil, especially trees in development. For trees in refinement, I’ll mix in a 1/8”-1/4” fraction, but few of my trees on at that stage. For me, finer soil than that creates feathery, fine feeder roots that are not helpful for building root structure and nebari development. It’s not just a matter of whether the tree will live in the soil. Roots just grow differently in a fine substrate than a coarse one. It’s because the pore size is small when the grain size gets small. If the pore size is small, then the roots are small too. Compare:

Grown in a coarse grained soil (1/4” to 3/8”)
View attachment 283406

Grown in a fine grained soil (1/16” to 1/8”)
View attachment 283408

The first is a good root system. The second one is horrible, but often mistaken for being good because there are a lot of feeder roots. In fact, you can let this tree grow in this substrate forever and you’ll likely never get a very good nebari or root system out of it. The goal is to make a bonsai, not to find the cheapest soil a tree can survive in. I’ve bought a bag of 8822 looking to experiment with it before - the problem was that the ENTIRE bag (100%) went through the 1/4” sieve. I didn’t use any of it. I have no doubt that trees will live in it. I’m waiting for someone to show me a good bonsai with a well developed root system using it. That I’ve never seen.

- Scott

Wow, that's incredible! Thanks for showing the pictures and making that comment.

I've always sifted between 1/8" and 1/4" which is in between the soils used for your pictures. Maybe when I repot this spring I'll try a few trees in 1/4" to 3/8" instead.

Do you find that trees in coarser soil require more frequent watering (especially in Texas)? Or is that more determined by the water holding capacity of the components themselves?

You're right that DE is ALL smaller than 1/4" Here is a breakdown and after sifting a dozen or more bags, I have found this to be consistent.

 

markyscott

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Do you find that trees in coarser soil require more frequent watering (especially in Texas)? Or is that more determined by the water holding capacity of the components themselves?

During the summer I have an automatic watering system that thoroughly waters everything in the morning. I check everything in the evening when I come home from work and water the trees that need it - most do. When I leave town, i just set the system to come in twice per day. So 1-2 watering a day during the summer.

This time of year it just depends. The automatic system is off. On 80 degree winter weeks, I’m watering every day. On 40 degree winter weeks, I’m hardly watering at all.

S
 

markyscott

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You're right that DE is ALL smaller than 1/4" Here is a breakdown and after sifting a dozen or more bags, I have found this to be consistent.

The 1/8” and larger fraction would be fine for a top dressing if you use it. I always have plenty of extra in that size range just from seiving my soil components though and don’t need any more. I just sold 40 galllons of it that I would never use.
 

GrampaMoses

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The 1/8” and larger fraction would be fine for a top dressing if you use it. I always have plenty of extra in that size range just from seiving my soil components though and don’t need any more. I just sold 40 galllons of it that I would never use.

Thanks a lot for your answers! Can I ask one more? What components do you use in your mix?

I'm thinking pine bark chips and lava rock would both be easy to get in 1/4” to 3/8” size, but turface, 8822, and my source of pumice are all smaller than 1/4" making me wonder what else might be used in a mix. I know a nursery that sells Akadama, but I'll have to check if they have the medium grain or just the small grain.
 

markyscott

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Thanks a lot for your answers! Can I ask one more? What components do you use in your mix?

I'm thinking pine bark chips and lava rock would both be easy to get in 1/4” to 3/8” size, but turface, 8822, and my source of pumice are all smaller than 1/4" making me wonder what else might be used in a mix. I know a nursery that sells Akadama, but I'll have to check if they have the medium grain or just the small grain.

I use a mix of equal parts akadama, pumice and lava. Bought in bulk, the price for this mix is very reasonable for the size fraction that I use, especially when you consider that I save my soil when I repot - I dry it, seive it and reuse it all.

S
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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I’m reading thru all these posts and thinking to myself: “why does everyone try to make this so hard?”

I really don’t get it...

My basic mix is APL, which I can fine tune a bit by adding more pumice or akadama to make it less or more water retentive if I feel the need to do so. If some REALLY needs mire water retention I can add a layer of orchid moss spaghnum to the surface. I grow in full sun, in Georgia.

I use a slow release organic fertilizer with occasional doses of fish emulsion.

I’m not trying to perform rocket science! Just grow some trees!

Deciduous, conifer, really doesn’t matter. They all get the same stuff! Except azalea, which gets straight Kanuma.

I think my results speak for themselves. Keep it simple!


Why not just use Akadama, pumice & lava?

Now a days, I use this mix more often. But when I started with bonsai, it was simple. NONE of these were available locally. Everything had to be purchased at only one opportunity per year. Every August, I would have to guess what I needed for the entire year, and purchase it at the Bonsai Show at the Chicago Botanic Garden. If I ran out, there was no other source. Mail ordering "dirt" is incredibly expensive. It is a bit cheaper now, but really is quite expensive.

Second, I can not read Japanese. The Akadama I've purchased over the last 40 years has been all over the map, from soft crap that turns to sandy clay mush after the first frost in autumn, to really nice particles, that delight me with how well the particles hold up and my trees seem to like. And I have never figured out which Brands are "good quality". And I could not rely on vendors, because if you didn't get to the Bonsai Show in August before 10 am on Saturday, vendor after vendor would be sold out of Akadama. I used to get good Akadama from Jim Doyle, if I could get to him before he was sold out.

Jump forward 30 years, in the last 10 years, BC Bonsai, and Hidden Gardens opened in the "greater Chicagoland area". But both of the are more than an hour drive away. I'm half way between Chicago and Milwaukee, both are in the south and west suburbs of Chicago. Round trip to Hidden Gardens is about 100 miles, round trip to BC Bonsai is about 125 miles. This is not convenient, if you run out in the middle of repotting on a Sunday afternoon. But today this situation is MUCH better than it was for the first 30 years I grew bonsai.

And this scenario is what MOST people scattered across the country encounter when trying to figure out "bonsai". If you are not near one of the "hot spots" for the Bonsai Hobby, getting Akadama requires expensive mail order, and logistical planning. When as a newbie you have no experience with the "Benefits of Akadama", you think all those crowing about it are completely daft. And having encountered low quality, soft, crappy Akadama that even turns to mush in your storage shed, it is a miracle I ever tried Akadama a second time.

Today I always keep a bag of Akadama on hand, but it is still too expensive to use on much of my pre-bonsai stock.

As to lava and pumice, I figured out how to get pumice. A couple buddies from Milwaukee went in together and we boutght 3 pallets of bags, I still have enough to get through this year in the back yard. Sourcing issues for pumice when you live east of the Mississippi are difficult, but not as difficult as sourcing Akadama and Kanuma. You have to be really "sold" on how effective they are to make it worth the effort.

Last, over my 40 years of stumbling around in the wilderness, where there were no Akadama Stores, I learned you can grow a "pretty okay" tree without ever resorting to Akadama. Yes, Akadama is good stuff, but it aint the only stuff out there. You can grow a decent tree without using Akadama. I learned that within 25 miles of where I live I can source everything I need for growing a "pretty okay" tree without having to use Akadama, pumice or lava. I like APL, but none of them are convenient in terms of being less than a one hour round trip away from the house.
 

Adair M

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Why not just use Akadama, pumice & lava?

Now a days, I use this mix more often. But when I started with bonsai, it was simple. NONE of these were available locally. Everything had to be purchased at only one opportunity per year. Every August, I would have to guess what I needed for the entire year, and purchase it at the Bonsai Show at the Chicago Botanic Garden. If I ran out, there was no other source. Mail ordering "dirt" is incredibly expensive. It is a bit cheaper now, but really is quite expensive.

Second, I can not read Japanese. The Akadama I've purchased over the last 40 years has been all over the map, from soft crap that turns to sandy clay mush after the first frost in autumn, to really nice particles, that delight me with how well the particles hold up and my trees seem to like. And I have never figured out which Brands are "good quality". And I could not rely on vendors, because if you didn't get to the Bonsai Show in August before 10 am on Saturday, vendor after vendor would be sold out of Akadama. I used to get good Akadama from Jim Doyle, if I could get to him before he was sold out.

Jump forward 30 years, in the last 10 years, BC Bonsai, and Hidden Gardens opened in the "greater Chicagoland area". But both of the are more than an hour drive away. I'm half way between Chicago and Milwaukee, both are in the south and west suburbs of Chicago. Round trip to Hidden Gardens is about 100 miles, round trip to BC Bonsai is about 125 miles. This is not convenient, if you run out in the middle of repotting on a Sunday afternoon. But today this situation is MUCH better than it was for the first 30 years I grew bonsai.

And this scenario is what MOST people scattered across the country encounter when trying to figure out "bonsai". If you are not near one of the "hot spots" for the Bonsai Hobby, getting Akadama requires expensive mail order, and logistical planning. When as a newbie you have no experience with the "Benefits of Akadama", you think all those crowing about it are completely daft. And having encountered low quality, soft, crappy Akadama that even turns to mush in your storage shed, it is a miracle I ever tried Akadama a second time.

Today I always keep a bag of Akadama on hand, but it is still too expensive to use on much of my pre-bonsai stock.

As to lava and pumice, I figured out how to get pumice. A couple buddies from Milwaukee went in together and we boutght 3 pallets of bags, I still have enough to get through this year in the back yard. Sourcing issues for pumice when you live east of the Mississippi are difficult, but not as difficult as sourcing Akadama and Kanuma. You have to be really "sold" on how effective they are to make it worth the effort.

Last, over my 40 years of stumbling around in the wilderness, where there were no Akadama Stores, I learned you can grow a "pretty okay" tree without ever resorting to Akadama. Yes, Akadama is good stuff, but it aint the only stuff out there. You can grow a decent tree without using Akadama. I learned that within 25 miles of where I live I can source everything I need for growing a "pretty okay" tree without having to use Akadama, pumice or lava. I like APL, but none of them are convenient in terms of being less than a one hour round trip away from the house.
Nothing about bonsai is “convenient”, Leo!

There are no Akadama R Us stores! Few places to buy bonsai stock, tools, or pots. That is just all part of the journey.

Here in the Atlanta area, several of us band together every couple years to bring in pallets of akadama, Clay King, pumice, etc.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Nothing about bonsai is “convenient”, Leo!

There are no Akadama R Us stores! Few places to buy bonsai stock, tools, or pots. That is just all part of the journey.

Here in the Atlanta area, several of us band together every couple years to bring in pallets of akadama, Clay King, pumice, etc.

Sure, I understand that, and have developed my own network over the years. Today I can get Akadama, pretty much with a 2 hour round trip any day of the week. And I do get it when I feel I need it.

BUT the requirement to do this sort of hustling to get "Japanese Dirt" when we have plenty of "dirt" here in North America IS THE REASON, so many spend so much time and energy looking for alternatives. I live in an area where we have 3 bonsai clubs in a metro area with about 11 million people. (7 counties in Illinois and 4 counties in Wisconsin, all pretty much one continuous urban-suburban sprawl. Only a scattering of farms across this region. Mostly suburban and or urban. If finding supplies in this area is a chore, image what the majority of bonsai hobby growers have to go through for the rest of the country.

Don't discount the barrier this requirement to hustle to get Akadama places on most of us in the hobby. Not everyone is as social as yourself or myself. For some putting together a group purchase of pumice or Akadama is a barrier too high.

I don't discount using products other than Akadama, It is possible to produce a "pretty okay" to "great" tree without Akadama.
 

Adair M

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Sure, I understand that, and have developed my own network over the years. Today I can get Akadama, pretty much with a 2 hour round trip any day of the week. And I do get it when I feel I need it.

BUT the requirement to do this sort of hustling to get "Japanese Dirt" when we have plenty of "dirt" here in North America IS THE REASON, so many spend so much time and energy looking for alternatives. I live in an area where we have 3 bonsai clubs in a metro area with about 11 million people. (7 counties in Illinois and 4 counties in Wisconsin, all pretty much one continuous urban-suburban sprawl. Only a scattering of farms across this region. Mostly suburban and or urban. If finding supplies in this area is a chore, image what the majority of bonsai hobby growers have to go through for the rest of the country.

Don't discount the barrier this requirement to hustle to get Akadama places on most of us in the hobby. Not everyone is as social as yourself or myself. For some putting together a group purchase of pumice or Akadama is a barrier too high.

I don't discount using products other than Akadama, It is possible to produce a "pretty okay" to "great" tree without Akadama.
I agree. I’ve always said that a 50/50 lava/pumice mix will do well. The akadama is icing on the cake.

That said, today, folks are used to ordering stuff on-line. If they’re on this site, they know how to find stuff on line. A few bags of akadama, even though they’re expensive, would go pretty far to enhance locally sourced lava/scoria.

These days, hydroponics suppliers carry growing mediums that will work like lava/pumice.

There are some on-line bonsai supply houses that are selling pretty decent mixes and components. I’m thinking Superfly, and BonsaiJack. Even American Bonsai.

When I go to shows, I see lots of soil being loaded into people’s cars from the vendors.

The main thing is to avoid organics!
 

misfit11

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I’m reading thru all these posts and thinking to myself: “why does everyone try to make this so hard?”

I really don’t get it...

My basic mix is APL, which I can fine tune a bit by adding more pumice or akadama to make it less or more water retentive if I feel the need to do so. If some REALLY needs mire water retention I can add a layer of orchid moss spaghnum to the surface. I grow in full sun, in Georgia.

I use a slow release organic fertilizer with occasional doses of fish emulsion.

I’m not trying to perform rocket science! Just grow some trees!

Deciduous, conifer, really doesn’t matter. They all get the same stuff! Except azalea, which gets straight Kanuma.

I think my results speak for themselves. Keep it simple!
I’m with Adair here. I’ve been using APL for quite some time now and my trees are better for it. Likewise, I use more akadama in my deciduous trees for more water retention. I tried the Turface thing (although it’s quite difficult to find out here in CA) but wasn’t impressed due to the particle shape and lack of porosity. I even tried some kitty litters with marginal results. Ultimately, APL works the best for me and any additional cost is well worth it if my trees are healthy (I haven’t lost a tree in years. Knock on wood 😉) and given regular feeding they absolutely thrive.

When you get into this hobby enough and begin spending hundreds (and even thousands for some people) of dollars on your trees it doesn’t make sense to try and save a few extra bucks by buying kitty litter and oil absorbent when that could mean root rot and death of your tree.
 

BrianBay9

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.... it doesn’t make sense to try and save a few extra bucks by buying kitty litter and oil absorbent when that could mean root rot and death of your tree.

Yeah but it doesn't have to mean root rot and tree death. Usually it just means you have to make rational adjustments for how you care for your tree.
 

Anthony

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Heh Heh avoid organiics, but use oil cake meal or fish emulsion Heh heh.

Hydroponics plus organic fertiliser.

"We grow our Bonsai for BEAUTY not for produce or for lumber'
Sorry Sifu [ Adair ] couldn't resist the tease.
Good Day
Anthony

" another attempt to slow down loss of design ?
 
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