What makes a tree 'collectible'?

Colorado Josh

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What are some of the characteristics that make a tree 'collectible'?

I have collected a handful of trees the past couple of years with some success. The trees that have succeeded for me were less than 20 years old, so it was fairly easy to collect a root mass. But they were juvenile, and had limited artistic appeal

Today I went out to scout some douglas fir, in an area referred to as Windy Point. The big old beasts were absolutely stunning. Some of them had a root collar that was easily 25 inches. Obviously not collectible. I came across two trees that really struck with their style and potential to be removed from their surrounding rocks. I'm guessing that they're in the 50-100 year old category. But it's hard to tell.

I work in forestry with the USFS, and I have all of my permits. But I was reluctant to take any steps in collecting these trees, because I didn't want to fuck it up. One of the trees was one that I have had visions about for the past year. Unfortunately I don't have a picture of that one. I did grab a shot of the other that is in a comparable soil structure. Mostly rocks. I don't think that it would be difficult to remove the rocks to reveal the roots. But I feel that they may go a couple of feet into the rocks. Which would result in a large container, and more time to gain a viable root mass.

What do you look for when collecting? With the proper care and attention, do you think that these trees are collectible? I feel as though I should wait until spring. But I know that October is the 2nd best time to collect. The adjacent aspen trees are turning, so the time to collect may be upon us?

Photos to follow
 

wireme

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A few pictures from the days

Thats great man!

A picture only tells so much but on the face of it as likely a collectible candidate as I’ve ever seen.
Nice defined soil edge to work under, looks likely to be solid flat bedrock underneath.. I could go on with assessment tips but don’t feel like typing, maybe have more to say after but others will probably cover it first.
 

Woocash

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Well, as an authority on ignorance, I feel rather confident in saying that it’s a beauty. Take that at face value, but I’d be after it too, if it were me.
 

BrianBay9

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Andy Smith (Golden Arrow Bonsai) used to sell CDs on his collecting experience. Does he still? They were excellent - talk alot about selecting the tree. Larry Jackel's book is great too https://www.amazon.com/Ponderosa-Pines-Bonsai-Larry-Jackel/dp/1605309893

My experience with pines mostly in the Rockies: Look for trees growing in pockets in rock. Rock the trunk back and forth. If it feels solid with no movement at the bottom, move on. It will take major time, tools, and tree damage to get them out. Pick a tree who's whole root ball moves when you rock it. It will take 15 min and minimal damage to extract it with an intact root ball. Very likely to survive the process.

Of course you might look at 1000 trees to find one that is collectible by this criterion, but there's little point ripping out great looking trunks that won't survive.
 

M. Frary

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I work in forestry with the USFS, and I have all of my permits.
How does a person go about getting these?
I went down to the local office and they told me there is no such thing.
 

BrianBay9

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How does a person go about getting these?
I went down to the local office and they told me there is no such thing.

They're pretty easy to get in the western mountains - almost impossible to get in the east and California
 

Vance Wood

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You can't get what they wont provide. You also have to understand not every forest service ranger knows poo-poo from shoe polish or cares a hoot for what you want and even less for providing you the time to find out. I ran into one of those guys several years ago in Yellow Stone when I asked him some questions about White Bark Pine, and Limber Pine. He told me they were actually the same tree. He kind of backed off when I asked him why they both have different botanical names?
 

sorce

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@Vance Wood you understand the things great humans understand!

It's hard to keep this thing in the forefront of ones mind.
Naive was the word. WAS.

It's not Our Inexperience as much as it is the willingness of Motherfucking Assholes to just straight lie.

It would still be "Naive" if we could still knock the teeth out of these liars!

Is it so hard to say I don't know? My God!

Anyway.

I really appreciate you !

Sorce
 

sorce

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Is it so hard to say I don't know?

Or heaven forbid...

"I don't know, but so-and-so may".

Then that is admittance that someone knows more also, which by no means can anyone admit anymore.

Where that handbasket? Oh yeah the world is off in it.

Sorce
 

Vance Wood

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The last thing in the world some want to admit is that there are some things they don't know, and God forbid that you may know both this little truth, that they don't know shit, and that you may also know something they don't know. The fact that you are working on questions within their realm of knowledge and supposed expertise that they have never thought about drives them crazy. My father always said: No body likes a smart ass; I frequently fall victim to this metaphor, delivered by those who are worse; the dumb ass. My dad also said that no one likes a dumb ass. It seems to me that the dumb-asses rule the world for the most part anymore. You just have to be careful that in your attempts to become one you don't actually become the other.
 

Silentrunning

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@Vance Wood you understand the things great humans understand!

It's hard to keep this thing in the forefront of ones mind.
Naive was the word. WAS.

It's not Our Inexperience as much as it is the willingness of Motherfucking Assholes to just straight lie.

It would still be "Naive" if we could still knock the teeth out of these liars!

Is it so hard to say I don't know? My God!

Anyway.

I really appreciate you !

Sorce

When I want to get information from someone I don’t know, I will usually start by asking a question or two that I already know the answer to. This let’s me know if this person knows their stuff or if they are faking it.
 

a0kalittlema0n

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How does a person go about getting these?
I went down to the local office and they told me there is no such thing.

This so much. I haven't had any luck in California at all. I've tried to explain to them the difference between what they see a sapling as (a potential tree in the reforestation process) and the trees I'm looking for. The thing is that I have a hard time believing that no one is collecting in the Angeles National Forest, San Bernardino National Forest, BLM land, and the neighboring national forests. I just don't buy that. Some people have the connections and know the right people and don't share it (reasonably and understandably so I guess... but frustrating)
 

Vance Wood

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This so much. I haven't had any luck in California at all. I've tried to explain to them the difference between what they see a sapling as (a potential tree in the reforestation process) and the trees I'm looking for. The thing is that I have a hard time believing that no one is collecting in the Angeles National Forest, San Bernardino National Forest, BLM land, and the neighboring national forests. I just don't buy that. Some people have the connections and know the right people and don't share it (reasonably and understandably so I guess... but frustrating)
Some people don't understand because they choose not to.
 

Colorado Josh

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Some forests do not allow tree collecting. And there are many employees that do not know these permits are available. Ask for the foresters email. They should be able to give you accurate information.
 

River's Edge

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A few pictures from the day
Step One: When collecting i look for age and character. Interesting movement, suitable branching lower down for development, healthy tree's.
Step Two: is it collectable? Check stability is there some movement. Does it appear to be in a rock pocket that sits on bedrock? If it appears to be then i explore outside the drip line down to the bedrock. If i encounter several large anchor roots going sideways then there is a chance as long as i am also finding a good deal of smaller fibrous roots using the soil on top of the rock and closer to the trunk. Have to be careful at this point to differentiate between native shrubs, grasses and other stuff growing in the surface or same site.

If i encounter trunks that are very stable sitting in sites like pictured above, i assume they are anchored in rock cracks and likely a poorer candidate for collection. In other words my assessment of that site you have pictured above is more fractured rock then rock pockets formed on bedrock. The only way to know for sure is to check the stability of the trunk and possibly explore the actual root structure.
I have had better luck with sites that slope over bed rock and soil has collected in depressions formed by the rock formations.
 

Colorado Josh

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Step One: When collecting i look for age and character. Interesting movement, suitable branching lower down for development, healthy tree's.
Step Two: is it collectable? Check stability is there some movement. Does it appear to be in a rock pocket that sits on bedrock? If it appears to be then i explore outside the drip line down to the bedrock. If i encounter several large anchor roots going sideways then there is a chance as long as i am also finding a good deal of smaller fibrous roots using the soil on top of the rock and closer to the trunk. Have to be careful at this point to differentiate between native shrubs, grasses and other stuff growing in the surface or same site.

If i encounter trunks that are very stable sitting in sites like pictured above, i assume they are anchored in rock cracks and likely a poorer candidate for collection. In other words my assessment of that site you have pictured above is more fractured rock then rock pockets formed on bedrock. The only way to know for sure is to check the stability of the trunk and possibly explore the actual root structure.
I have had better luck with sites that slope over bed rock and soil has collected in depressions formed by the rock formations.

Thanks for the assessment. On both of the trees I found, it appeared as though there was a larger tap root that went deeper into the broken rock. With the removal of a few surface rocks, the tree definitely wiggled. If I were to remove 2 feet of rocks I think I could safely get them. I may try Walter palls methood of adding some soil to try and stimulate surface roots. These trees aren't going anywhere anytime soon.
 

a0kalittlema0n

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Some forests do not allow tree collecting. And there are many employees that do not know these permits are available. Ask for the foresters email. They should be able to give you accurate information.

Thanks for the advice. Have you noticed any specific words that trigger automatic refusals or particular wording you use when describing what you're wanting to make it a more successful venture?
 
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