What soil do you use for "pre-bonsai" or stock in training?

[justBonsai]

Hi,

What do you guys use for your growing mediums when training and growing out "pre-bonsai" stock. So far I've been hand grinding out scoria and making my own blends which work great, but the time invested isn't ideal. There is a large probably 20+ year old azalea in my front yard that I plan to dig out soon and begin training for several years as a bonsai. Additionally there is a large old bougainvillea that will be available for me to remove that would make a good project as well. I want to use a good quality substrate while the plant re-establishes itself and develops new roots, but the idea of hand preparing so much bonsai soil for such a large tree is unappealing. What would be a good, easily put together blend that I can use while these trees re-establish themselves and grow roots before I get into finer training?

For plants still in training could I use something like 1 part pumice and 1 part sifted miracle grow? Something simple that would still allow for good root growth and formation?

Any tips and advice is appreciated.

Thanks,
Julian

 

[sorce]

That sounds like a good mix.

Generally, it's easiest to use the same "water once or twice a day" mix as everything else.

Unless you are retired and have time to sit with your finger in a pot!

Sorce

 

[Anthony]

Make sure the core of your plant is a durable inorganic material. You won't be able to easily interfere with the zone around the trunk and you need spaces for organic material to filter through as they decay, this includes fine root material.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Cypress187]

I wish i would had asked this question last year

 

[coh]

You might have some fun with this thread:

http://bonsainut.com/index.php?threads/best-soil-for-developing-trees.14157/

 

[wireme]

I wish i would had asked this question last year

Why is that? Something you used didn't work out for you?

 

[qwade]

I live on the east coast so affordable available materials could be different. My bulk mix for trees----Sphagnum moss (peat), Course Perlite, Chicken Grit and a turface like clay material 'absorb' from the tractor store. In equal amounts. Inexpensive in my area. Works for me.

 

[Cypress187]

Why is that? Something you used didn't work out for you?

Nope it didn't, i thought they needed more/much organic 'real' soil (compost/potting soil), and now they all have wet feet and dieying on me (2 of them gave up and drowned), i learned/and still are learning alot (the hard way). Most of them are free or collected so it's not that bad but i don't like watching dieying plants. (4 hornbeams (not healthy) and 1 dogwood (dead) and a collected unknown species (dieying).

 

[Eric Group]

This has been discussed before... A bunch...

I actually started this thread a little while back and it went into 14 pages of discussion!
http://bonsainut.com/index.php?threads/best-soil-for-developing-trees.14157/

 

[M. Frary]

And failing from being collected ptobably. The hornbeams are one of the hardest decidious trees to collect and do what you want. I got 1 out of 5 American Hornbeams that sprouted buds up higher on the trunk. 3 want to grow from the base and 1 never even recovered.
I collect a few trees from the wild from time to time on occasion. If I were you I would be scouring the landscape for native elms and hawthorns. I've yet to have a single 1 of those die after collection. Once you find a few go find out who owns the trees and ask if it's alright to dig up a tree.
Most people don't like either of these trees on their property. They will take over an area fairly fast and hawthorns can puncture a tractor tire. Then go back as soon as you can get a shovel in the ground next spring and get them.
Aftercare is the key to collecting any species. Every single decidious tree that is collected gets all of the native soil washed off. And I mean cleaned right up. Then it gets the big roots cut back to the point where I could pop it into the appropriate sized bonsai pot ot will be going inot in the future. But for at least the first year sometimes 2 years they will be put into a collander with plain old Diatomaceous Earth. 100%.

 

[justBonsai]

And failing from being collected ptobably. The hornbeams are one of the hardest decidious trees to collect and do what you want. I got 1 out of 5 American Hornbeams that sprouted buds up higher on the trunk. 3 want to grow from the base and 1 never even recovered.
I collect a few trees from the wild from time to time on occasion. If I were you I would be scouring the landscape for native elms and hawthorns. I've yet to have a single 1 of those die after collection. Once you find a few go find out who owns the trees and ask if it's alright to dig up a tree.
Most people don't like either of these trees on their property. They will take over an area fairly fast and hawthorns can puncture a tractor tire. Then go back as soon as you can get a shovel in the ground next spring and get them.
Aftercare is the key to collecting any species. Every single decidious tree that is collected gets all of the native soil washed off. And I mean cleaned right up. Then it gets the big roots cut back to the point where I could pop it into the appropriate sized bonsai pot ot will be going inot in the future. But for at least the first year sometimes 2 years they will be put into a collander with plain old Diatomaceous Earth. 100%.

Where would I buy diatomaceous earth? Is it made from very fine particulates or are there larger sizes?

 

[Eric Group]

You might have some fun with this thread:

http://bonsainut.com/index.php?threads/best-soil-for-developing-trees.14157/

LMAO! Didn't see you had already posted this link... That was a thorough discussion on the subject, wasn't it?

 

[Eric Group]

Where would I buy diatomaceous earth? Is it made from very fine particulates or are there larger sizes?

He uses Napa Oil Dry I believe... I find it dries out too fast, has a tiny particle size and gums up the works eventually when used by itself or as the primary component for a mix. When mixed equal parts with Sphagnum peat moss, perlite and "soil conditioner" (small sized pine bark) though, it makes a fine "potting soil mix you can use for all sorts of trees in development! About $20 can buy you a bag of all the components I mentioned, and when mixed... That makes A LOT of dirt!

Primarily, my "grow out" mix for developing stock not in Bonsai pots is based around the peat and perlite... Adding the other two gives some weight and "airiness" to the soil mix though.. That oil dry is good stuff, which I find to be almost IDENTICAL to turface in the way it acts as part of a soil mix.. Except oil dry is grey, turface is most of a clay color.. And the oils dry has a coating of dust on the particles that is difficult to get rid up of and is almost "slimy" to a degree.. Plus I can usually find the Turface in a big ole 50lb bag, but the oil dry comes in tiny little bags...

 

[justBonsai]

Hmm thanks for the info. I like using perlite too but the stuff dries really fast and requires constant watering. I'm currently still in college and its unreasonable to expect my parents to constantly watch and frequently water my plants. I'm thinking a mix of mostly pumice, some sifted potting soil, and perlite would do. Also where would I find 25-50lb turface bags?

 

[fredman]

I use a mix of composted pine bark, pumice and peat moss in a 5.1.1 ratio. Its open but retains enough moisture. I find if I place my grow pots on the ground in my grow beds, the plants grow much faster. No problems with a suspended water table in the pot that way....

 

[Adair M]

I use a mix of composted pine bark, pumice and peat moss in a 5.1.1 ratio. Its open but retains enough moisture. I find if I place my grow pots on the ground in my grow beds, the plants grow much faster. No problems with a suspended water table in the pot that way....

5 part pine bark? Really?

 

[M. Frary]

Napa Oil Dry I

100 % most times. Sometimes some grit falls in. No bark no dirt. No problems either. My trees grow excellent and I have never had it dry out. I water once per day.

 

[Eric Group]

Hmm thanks for the info. I like using perlite too but the stuff dries really fast and requires constant watering. I'm currently still in college and its unreasonable to expect my parents to constantly watch and frequently water my plants. I'm thinking a mix of mostly pumice, some sifted potting soil, and perlite would do. Also where would I find 25-50lb turface bags?

Some sports supply places might have it- it is used on the infields for baseball fields commonly.. I get mine at a local landscape place- John Deere supply or something like that. They sell like commercial quantity yard care stuff- ferts and pesticides, some tools... And they will usually have a few bags of turface lying around. Make sure you get the one with the larger sized granules... There is one with tiny, sand sized particles and one with particles about 1/16th- 1/8th of an inch or so... The one I buy is called "All Sport" I think, but "MVP" I have heard is the same stuff- That is the one you want.

There is much discussion of the evils of turface/ DE for bonsai use, but I have found it to be fine. Is it "as good as Akadama"? I don't know, they are really different and designed to do different things... But Turface won't break down (is reusable if you want to reuse it..) retains small amounts of moisture and drains well... Akadama retains moisture better, breaks down over time, has better range of particle sizes/ variance which leads to more oxygen in your mix... Both seem to work well when mixed with other ingredients like pumice, lava, pine bark... I have a JM that has been in a bonsai soil mix with turface as the primary base ingredient- mixed with pumice and some small particles of pine bark (soil conditioner)- for two years now, and the tree has thrived like none of my others! It sends out foot long runners in a month if allowed to grow free, never seems to dry out when others are wilting, drains as fast/ faster than trees even in a pumice/ lava/ Akadama mix... And I used that mix for multiple other trees that year with similar- VERY GOOD- results, So I cannot say my experiences reflect ANY negative results from using turface... But others claim they have had bad things happen. I suspect- as is the cause of most root/ soil issues- they simply were not watering enough/ properly.

As a cheap additive for a soil mix to pot trees in large pots that I am just growing out? Turface is FAR more reasonably priced/ easily available (usually) and makes a great additive to a peat based potting mix IMO! Please read the linked thread to see what you think of the full range of discussion we had on this before. (If you have about 67 hours to kill pouring over snooty plant people arguing semantics of what mix is best for their trees!)

 

[coh]

LMAO! Didn't see you had already posted this link... That was a thorough discussion on the subject, wasn't it?

Great minds think alike?

 

[Eric Group]

Great minds think alike?

And fools seldom differ! Jk