What strength is a typical 'foliar-feed' spray made at?

[SU2]

I'm not looking to argue the validity of the concept in general, I know it doesn't have much support - I'm hoping to find out just how strong people make these sprays when they do use them, am sure *somebody* here uses them despite their unfounded/unproven benefits! Thanks

(to be clear this is a test, I've also got a granular organic I'm doing testers with as well but for the foliar-feed tester I don't know if I should be mixing at normal 1tbsp/gal or what!)

 

[M. Frary]

The only foliage feeding I do is to pour the foam left in my watering can affet fertilizing.
It's fairly powerful foam.

 

[0soyoung]

A few hundred parts per million.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Foliar feeding is ''valid'' in that it has been shown in a number of studies that fertilizer in a water solution can be absorbed by the leaves. Useful in the situation where you have a compromised root system and are trying to get a weak tree to recover. The absorption rate for the leaves is less than the efficiency of the roots, if I am recalling correctly, but won't argue the point either.

In my opinion it is silly to wet the leaves with fertilizer solution and not wet the roots. So when I foliar feed, I wet the leaves, roots, pot and soil with the solution. In which case the concentration of fertilizer solution is the same as for drenching the soil. I just drench soil and leaves. I have not done any controlled experiments myself, so have no ''observations'' other than in 40+ years of raising orchids and bonsai I have never had a problem with wetting the leaves with the fertilizer solution. Actually for 40+ years I always wet both foliage and the soil when I water with fertilizer solution. The only thing I try not to wet with the fertilizer solution are fully opened flowers, other than that, leaves, trunk, roots, pot all get drenched with the fertilizer solution. You want to wet the tree enough that water runs out the drainage holes in the bottom of the pot.

I suppose in certain specific situations where a cutting has no roots yet, and you've already been waiting a year or more for roots to form, that wetting the foliage with fertilizer and not wetting the soil with fertilizer might have some purpose, but frankly, I still can not conceive of a reason to not wet the soil.

By the way, I prefer to fertilize at a lower than label strength concentration, and prefer to fertilize more frequently.

I do not use fertilizer like a certain group, making a triple strength or heavier concentrated solution and pour it on only once a month or so. Their system will work if you water the trees as heavily as the originating author does. If you don't flush the excess fertilizer out of the trees the next couple days after applying the heavy dose, you may end up with damage. But if you follow the whole regime, including the potting media, watering frequency and fertilizer, it is a system with proven results. I let my trees and orchids dry a little between watering, this system will not work for me.

I choose the amount of nitrogen I want available and raise or lower the concentration of the fertilizer accordingly. Lower in cool weather, highest in the warm days of early summer and active growth. My solution ranges from 40 ppm as N in late autumn, to 1000 ppm as N during peak growth spurts for plants I'm pushing for rapid growth. Normal is 125 ppm as N for spring and summer for the general collection that I want good normal growth rates.

 

[SU2]

Foliar feeding is ''valid'' in that it has been shown in a number of studies that fertilizer in a water solution can be absorbed by the leaves. Useful in the situation where you have a compromised root system and are trying to get a weak tree to recover. The absorption rate for the leaves is less than the efficiency of the roots, if I am recalling correctly, but won't argue the point either.

Yes the tester tree is one of several with insufficient roots, am interested if foliar-feeding helps it relative to the others ;D

In my opinion it is silly to wet the leaves with fertilizer solution and not wet the roots. So when I foliar feed, I wet the leaves, roots, pot and soil with the solution. In which case the concentration of fertilizer solution is the same as for drenching the soil. I just drench soil and leaves. I have not done any controlled experiments myself, so have no ''observations'' other than in 40+ years of raising orchids and bonsai I have never had a problem with wetting the leaves with the fertilizer solution. Actually for 40+ years I always wet both foliage and the soil when I water with fertilizer solution. The only thing I try not to wet with the fertilizer solution are fully opened flowers, other than that, leaves, trunk, roots, pot all get drenched with the fertilizer solution. You want to wet the tree enough that water runs out the drainage holes in the bottom of the pot.

Absolutely! I do full waterings whenever I water (learned the problems with trying to keep a steady-state of moisture!), and when I do fert I'll get it on the leaves a little but was hoping to try a real foliar-feed approach, thanks for the specific reco I just didn't know if it was the type of thing where it'd burn the leaves to do an 8-8-8 at 1tbsp/gal (am also going to put a light dose of minerals/trace elements fert in it)

I suppose in certain specific situations where a cutting has no roots yet, and you've already been waiting a year or more for roots to form, that wetting the foliage with fertilizer and not wetting the soil with fertilizer might have some purpose, but frankly, I still can not conceive of a reason to not wet the soil.

Agreed, this is in-addition-to the routine soil fertilization which, I believe, is likely as much (or 99%+) of what the plants can uptake anyways when they've got a developed root system

By the way, I prefer to fertilize at a lower than label strength concentration, and prefer to fertilize more frequently.

I do the same! With such porous, infertile media as I use, it just never made sense to me to fert every 7-14d, so I cut the dose and increase the frequency already

I do not use fertilizer like a certain group, making a triple strength or heavier concentrated solution and pour it on only once a month or so. Their system will work if you water the trees as heavily as the originating author does. If you don't flush the excess fertilizer out of the trees the next couple days after applying the heavy dose, you may end up with damage. But if you follow the whole regime, including the potting media, watering frequency and fertilizer, it is a system with proven results. I let my trees and orchids dry a little between watering, this system will not work for me.

Is it because of the salts? I do the same, mostly because it's what I've been told but have always wondered if there's more to it, or just the fact that it's not good to have too much salts around the roots at any particular time.

I choose the amount of nitrogen I want available and raise or lower the concentration of the fertilizer accordingly. Lower in cool weather, highest in the warm days of early summer and active growth. My solution ranges from 40 ppm as N in late autumn, to 1000 ppm as N during peak growth spurts for plants I'm pushing for rapid growth. Normal is 125 ppm as N for spring and summer for the general collection that I want good normal growth rates.

That's awesome, I'm going into my 1st winter with a bonsai nursery so trying to get a handle on how to change things, I know decreasing nitro is important but am very curious what you use for getting those ppm values, are there relatively-cheap ways of doing that?


Thanks for such a comprehensive reply!!

[edit- are you leaving it on or does it get rinsed later that day / subsequent day? And to be clear, I'm intending to use regular Miracle-Gro instant release to make this, although I've got Espoma's 3-4-4 GardenTone that I could use as well but my guess is that putting that type of organic on my canopy would have it covered with ants!]

 

[SU2]

A few hundred parts per million.

How do you measure this? ie gauges/tools or pen&paper?

 

[SU2]

The only foliage feeding I do is to pour the foam left in my watering can affet fertilizing.
It's fairly powerful foam.

Do you leave it on? My understanding was that you apply it and subsequently wash it off, like an ideal approach would be to apply in the AM, then rinse in the mid-afternoon..

 

[Shima]

A few hundred parts per million.

 

[BrianBay9]

ppm = 1 mg per liter

 

[M. Frary]

Do you leave it on? My understanding was that you apply it and subsequently wash it off, like an ideal approach would be to apply in the AM, then rinse in the mid-afternoon..

Yep. They suck it up fast on sunny days. Or it dries up.
Don't know if it helps but it hasn't hurt anything.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I do the same! With such porous, infertile media as I use, it just never made sense to me to fert every 7-14d, so I cut the dose and increase the frequency already

I never flush the fertilizer out of the plants on purpose. If I water them today with fertilizer solution, they won't get clear water, or more fertilizer until the soil has dried out enough that it is their normal time to be watered. I am using a dose rate that is considered ''average'' to ''dilute''. I am not using excessively concentrated fertilizer.

Indoors, for the orchids, and the tropical & sub-tropical bonsai in the lights set up I fertilize at a low dose, 3 out of 4 times I water. I water every 3 to 5 days depending on humidity and temps, and I will add fertilizer to the water 3 times in a row, then do a watering with clear water, no fertilizer. In winter the fertilizer is usually 40 to 75 ppm as Nitrogen. Which is 1/4 to 1/2 teaspoon per gallon of the 12-1-2 that I am using.

Is it because of the salts? I do the same, mostly because it's what I've been told but have always wondered if there's more to it, or just the fact that it's not good to have too much salts around the roots at any particular time.

Here I was referring to Walter Pall's method. He suggests using 3 or 4 times the label directions in the fertilizer solution. He waters, then applies this concentrated solution, then does not water again until the next day. It works for him, key is, you need to water twice a day as he instructs. The heavy watering will leach out any fertilizer imbalance. You need to use the same type of media he uses. Change anything in his system and you are likely to run into trouble. But do as he says, and it will work.

I can't hang around and water my trees twice a day, I don't have students to do it for me. So my method tolerates me letting the trees get a little more dry between watering. This way I can leave the house for 48 hours and still have trees when I get home.

I know decreasing nitro is important but am very curious what you use for getting those ppm values, are there relatively-cheap ways of doing that?

There is a handy ''fertilizer TDS Calculator'' that you just plug the desired amount of either total TDS or the amount of N you want in your finished solution, and then plug in the assay of your fertilizer. Bingo it tells you how much to add per gallon. Or it will work in metric if you select that option. The website where this resides is First Rays Orchid Supplies LLC, the owner is a long time acquaintance of mine, a good guy and his ''Free Information'' section of his website has most of the fertilizer articles I read to get me to where I am at around fertilizer. So go to this website, read and use the calculator. Its easy and straight forward. Orchids and trees need the same nutrients, in roughly the same ratios, so the information is ''all good'' and most is directly transferable. We raise our trees in inert media, orchids are usually raised in inert media. The information transferes well.

http://firstrays.com/free-informati...ion-of-fertilizers/fertilizer-tds-calculator/

[edit- are you leaving it on or does it get rinsed later that day / subsequent day? And to be clear, I'm intending to use regular Miracle-Gro instant release to make this, although I've got Espoma's 3-4-4 GardenTone that I could use as well but my guess is that putting that type of organic on my canopy would have it covered with ants!]

I would be a little cautious, piling on organic fertilizer is fine, but do take into account the amount when you then add liquid fertilizer, you don't want to overdo it. I am not familiar with the Epsoma product, so can't comment about it. I pretty much only use chemical fertilizers myself, I don't bother with the organics. Nothing wrong with them, I just can't tell you much about how to use them.

 

[M. Frary]

Here I was referring to Walter Pall's method. He suggests using 3 or 4 times the label directions in the fertilizer solution. He waters, then applies this concentrated solution, then does not water again until the next day. It works for him, key is, you need to water twice a day as he instructs

This is what I do but I only water once per day.

 

[Walter Pall]

"Here I was referring to Walter Pall's method. He suggests using 3 or 4 times the label directions in the fertilizer solution. He waters, then applies this concentrated solution, then does not water again until the next day. It works for him, key is, you need to water twice a day as he instructs. The heavy watering will leach out any fertilizer imbalance. You need to use the same type of media he uses. Change anything in his system and you are likely to run into trouble. But do as he says, and it will work. "

Nowhere have I ever said this. I water once per day during the warm season, twice when tit is very hot and every two to three days when it gets cooler - and then every two to three weeks when it is very cold.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

"Here I was referring to Walter Pall's method. He suggests using 3 or 4 times the label directions in the fertilizer solution. He waters, then applies this concentrated solution, then does not water again until the next day. It works for him, key is, you need to water twice a day as he instructs. The heavy watering will leach out any fertilizer imbalance. You need to use the same type of media he uses. Change anything in his system and you are likely to run into trouble. But do as he says, and it will work. "

Nowhere have I ever said this. I water once per day during the warm season, twice when tit is very hot and every two to three days when it gets cooler - and then every two to three weeks when it is very cold.

Walter,
My apologies, I was working from memory, and did not go back to your website to check, which I should have done. I will accept that I misquoted you. I do acknowledge, what you do works well, and if someone wants to use your system, they must follow your directions for water, fertilizer and potting media as all three influence each other. I had your directions scrambled in my head.

My apologies

 

[MichaelS]

Just a few points about feeding....take it or leave it.

1/ There is a growth response curve in all plants where the optimum performance ( maximum growth) is achieved at a certain EC. Anything below that or anything above that leads to reduced growth. This is well known in the billion horticulture industry and is utilized especially by the professional hydroponics industry where they seek to push their crops to the maximum. Many trials have been undertaken to determine the exact optimum EC before mass production.

2/ Most fertilizer manufactures are in the business of selling as much fertilizer as possible. It is in their interest to recommend the highest possible rate of application on the packet of fertilizer. There is always a maximum! That's what they do. This is determined again through previous trials or knowledge.

3/ Using a fertilizer at 3 times the recommended rate is asking for trouble. It's probably likely that this rate will lead to reduced growth not increased growth. Even if this is not easily seen. At least with the majority of good commercial fertilizer formulations.
NOTE! It just takes a slight excess of one nutrient eg: copper or zinc or anything else - to reduce growth! Even a sudden (or slow) change in pH can produce toxicities if there is an excess of something.

4/ Even if the extreme EC from 3 times the rate does not result in apparent plant growth reduction if not direct damage, in bonsai, by the time you have reached the third ramification, the rate of N application should be reduced to preserve fineness and delicate growth. It should be reduced even more by the fifth. Otherwise you will end up with long internodes, larger leaves and unmanageable coarseness in the branching. No amount of pruning will counter this.

5/ A very high EC will lead to a reduction of mycorrhizae which in turn can affect the long term health of a tree, leaving it more susceptible to all kinds of stresses. The longest living (healthiest) trees and those which grow in a well balanced and moderate soil environment.

6/ If you go down the ''hyper feeding'' road, you should not just pick up a packet and triple the rate without first knowing just what is inside. They very tremendously. Especially the cheaper ones.

Carry on.............

 

[Potawatomi13]

I'm not looking to argue the validity of the concept in general, I know it doesn't have much support - I'm hoping to find out just how strong people make these sprays when they do use them, am sure *somebody* here uses them despite their unfounded/unproven benefits! Thanks

(to be clear this is a test, I've also got a granular organic I'm doing testers with as well but for the foliar-feed tester I don't know if I should be mixing at normal 1tbsp/gal or what!)

Personally seen to work when tried on wild growing tree(Lodgepole Pine Yamadori)and after seasons growth had thicker greener needles. Used by self on weak tree or just replanted until strength is manifest once again as well as when wanting to boost backbudding. Normally use full strength fertilizer/H2O mix sometimes with added HB-101 plant vitalizer. Caveat is do not do except when cool cloudy weather or end of day to alleviate possibility of foliage burn. Prefer not in early morning as sun will dry onto and possibly burn foliage. Have never washed off afterwards unless by rain.

 

[Walter Pall]

Walter,
My apologies, I was working from memory, and did not go back to your website to check, which I should have done. I will accept that I misquoted you. I do acknowledge, what you do works well, and if someone wants to use your system, they must follow your directions for water, fertilizer and potting media as all three influence each other. I had your directions scrambled in my head.

My apologies

Leo, forget it, no big deal. It just needed my correction because it was misinformation.

 

[GrimLore]

I stopped foliar watering and feeding on all plants here. The only foliar they get is rain except for a few that I even protect from rain. If the weather gets VERY hot for an extended period I sometimes will blast the entire plant to cool it down a bit but only when I water and the pots actually steam off because of the heat.

Grimmy

 

[SU2]

I never flush the fertilizer out of the plants on purpose. If I water them today with fertilizer solution, they won't get clear water, or more fertilizer until the soil has dried out enough that it is their normal time to be watered. I am using a dose rate that is considered ''average'' to ''dilute''. I am not using excessively concentrated fertilizer.

Indoors, for the orchids, and the tropical & sub-tropical bonsai in the lights set up I fertilize at a low dose, 3 out of 4 times I water. I water every 3 to 5 days depending on humidity and temps, and I will add fertilizer to the water 3 times in a row, then do a watering with clear water, no fertilizer. In winter the fertilizer is usually 40 to 75 ppm as Nitrogen. Which is 1/4 to 1/2 teaspoon per gallon of the 12-1-2 that I am using.


Here I was referring to Walter Pall's method. He suggests using 3 or 4 times the label directions in the fertilizer solution. He waters, then applies this concentrated solution, then does not water again until the next day. It works for him, key is, you need to water twice a day as he instructs. The heavy watering will leach out any fertilizer imbalance. You need to use the same type of media he uses. Change anything in his system and you are likely to run into trouble. But do as he says, and it will work.

I can't hang around and water my trees twice a day, I don't have students to do it for me. So my method tolerates me letting the trees get a little more dry between watering. This way I can leave the house for 48 hours and still have trees when I get home.



There is a handy ''fertilizer TDS Calculator'' that you just plug the desired amount of either total TDS or the amount of N you want in your finished solution, and then plug in the assay of your fertilizer. Bingo it tells you how much to add per gallon. Or it will work in metric if you select that option. The website where this resides is First Rays Orchid Supplies LLC, the owner is a long time acquaintance of mine, a good guy and his ''Free Information'' section of his website has most of the fertilizer articles I read to get me to where I am at around fertilizer. So go to this website, read and use the calculator. Its easy and straight forward. Orchids and trees need the same nutrients, in roughly the same ratios, so the information is ''all good'' and most is directly transferable. We raise our trees in inert media, orchids are usually raised in inert media. The information transferes well.

http://firstrays.com/free-informati...ion-of-fertilizers/fertilizer-tds-calculator/



I would be a little cautious, piling on organic fertilizer is fine, but do take into account the amount when you then add liquid fertilizer, you don't want to overdo it. I am not familiar with the Epsoma product, so can't comment about it. I pretty much only use chemical fertilizers myself, I don't bother with the organics. Nothing wrong with them, I just can't tell you much about how to use them.

Thanks a ton, I've looked for this info for ages and never found as detailed as your posts in this thread (which I've screen-shot and saved as 'fertilizer ppm guidelines'!), always impossible to find hard #'s even from walter pall (who's in my thread, I feel like a celebrity has entered!) or hydroponic-specific places, the ppm-->tbsp equivalences were just beyond me, and that's *if* I could get hard #'s in either nomenclature at all!! Will be reading your post several more times so likely to need to ask more as I take all that in

 

[SU2]

"Here I was referring to Walter Pall's method. He suggests using 3 or 4 times the label directions in the fertilizer solution. He waters, then applies this concentrated solution, then does not water again until the next day. It works for him, key is, you need to water twice a day as he instructs. The heavy watering will leach out any fertilizer imbalance. You need to use the same type of media he uses. Change anything in his system and you are likely to run into trouble. But do as he says, and it will work. "

Nowhere have I ever said this. I water once per day during the warm season, twice when tit is very hot and every two to three days when it gets cooler - and then every two to three weeks when it is very cold.

Hi Walter, thanks for coming-in to answer stuff, your "Feeding, Substrate and Watering" article has been a cornerstone for me since beginning.

You came here to correct him, I want to be clear in exactly what you're correcting? You use the heavier fert and you water >1x daily in many cases, is it the "watering after fertilizing" part you took to be wrong? I read his post as just a way of describing the aggressive watering&fertilization and am truly confused which part you're taking issue with, every part of it seems to jive with the core principle "only that I insist on aggressive watering in parallel to aggressive feeding and the use of modern substrates"

Thanks again for coming and posting, very cool to see you here I'm totally indebted to you for how much value I've gotten from that article!!