What to do about early bud break?

Lars Grimm

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Hi All,

In North Carolina, we have had some near record highs. It has been low 70s this week, but it is expected to get down to high 20s next week. Some of my trees (quince, beautyberry) have already started to leaf out despite being in a sun protected cold frame. This is a new experience for me. I'm planning to keep them in the shade during warmer days and to keep them from freezing when we get cold nights, but is there anything else I can do? Since they are not dormant anymore, does this mean I need to start giving them sun?

Sincerely,
Lars
 

sorce

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@cmeg1 good to go! Lol! Eeeek!
😜
....

@Lars Grimm are you sure they did receive that 1000 hours off yet?
If not they may still be capable of going dormant naturally.

Sorce
 

AlainK

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I'm planning to keep them in the shade during warmer days and to keep them from freezing when we get cold nights

Sounds good.

Here too, the weather's been very mild (zone 8). I have a Pseudocydonia sinensis (Chinese quince), it's always the first one to bud out. Last year, it wall in full leaves but they were still very tender and soft and after two or three nights of light frost in February, all the leaves were burned. I thought it was a goner, but it leafed out again later.

Three days ago (the big green leaves are last year's) :

pseudocydonia01_200111a.jpg
 

It's Kev

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My chinese elm is waking up, but that’s because I’ve just bought it from way up north, so I’m expecting it anyways since I’m 2 or 3 zones up.
I bout a JM from about halfway in between and it’s still dormant.

I reckon if you can guarantee some protection overnight just let nature take its course and all will be fine
 

rockm

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If those plants are in leaf, the roots have lost most all of their winter hardness. IF they are leafing out, THEY HAVE SATISFIED THEIR CHILLING HOUR REQUIREMENTS. They are now vulnerable to freezing and should be completely protected from that--cold frame probably isn't going to cut it. You are going to have to bring them inside ahead of the coming deep freeze next week. Failure to do that will result in winter kill, perhaps some, perhaps all of the tree.

The trees CANNOT be pushed back into dormancy once growth has begun (bud break is when leaves begin peeling away from the main bud--even just a bit that is barely noticeable).

You are finding out why a cold frame in N.C. is a very bad idea.
 

Vance Wood

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If those plants are in leaf, the roots have lost most all of their winter hardness. IF they are leafing out, THEY HAVE SATISFIED THEIR CHILLING HOUR REQUIREMENTS. They are now vulnerable to freezing and should be completely protected from that--cold frame probably isn't going to cut it. You are going to have to bring them inside ahead of the coming deep freeze next week. Failure to do that will result in winter kill, perhaps some, perhaps all of the tree.

The trees CANNOT be pushed back into dormancy once growth has begun (bud break is when leaves begin peeling away from the main bud--even just a bit that is barely noticeable).

You are finding out why a cold frame in N.C. is a very bad idea.
I agree.
 

AlainK

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The trees CANNOT be pushed back into dormancy once growth has begun

👍

Indoors, OK, but in a well-lit place and with a cool temperature. Something I can't do because I don't have an unheated greenhouse, so when the temps go below zero (32F), I'll put it in my basement garage for the night.
 

Lars Grimm

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If those plants are in leaf, the roots have lost most all of their winter hardness. IF they are leafing out, THEY HAVE SATISFIED THEIR CHILLING HOUR REQUIREMENTS. They are now vulnerable to freezing and should be completely protected from that--cold frame probably isn't going to cut it. You are going to have to bring them inside ahead of the coming deep freeze next week. Failure to do that will result in winter kill, perhaps some, perhaps all of the tree.

The trees CANNOT be pushed back into dormancy once growth has begun (bud break is when leaves begin peeling away from the main bud--even just a bit that is barely noticeable).

You are finding out why a cold frame in N.C. is a very bad idea.
I said cold frame, but it is actually a shed with no windows and a temperature triggered heating element so it never goes below 32 degrees. It can get a little warmer than the ambient air though so I try to keep the door ajar during the day when I am home.
 

leatherback

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Here we are expecting 55+F next week. Veerry strange. And yes. I was doing some work on a few trees today, decided to flip pots around and found loads of active roots. TRees are acting as if it were mid March. :(
 

WNC Bonsai

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I am facing the same situation with my quince, the buds on one are swelling and a few have opened. We are looking at temps around 70 here in Asheville this week so I bet the rest will pop. I bet these have a very low chill hour requirement, not all species need 1000 hours. Some apple varieties have been bred that are down around 200 so they can be grown in warmer parts of California. I am getting more and more concerned about this winter warmth being a big issue for bonsai In the SE and even mid-Atlantic. I am seriously considering digging a root cellar where I can have better temp control. You folks down in the flatlands may have to start growing tropicals as your bonsai.
 

sorce

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Damn......

You know what just realized don't cha?


This could have been prevented by having a proper cold greenhouse, or leaving the trees outside.
Especially in Cackalack.

I don't want to ride you @Lars Grimm ...just help.

I learned when my elm from VA withstood -18F like "fuck you" that cold AF is better than even slightly "protected".

......

I once spoke to a pipe fitter from Tennessee, told me a story about how they were working in a factory that used ammonia. You ever see the wind socks on the outside walls of factories? It's so you know which direction to run away from the ammonia if there is a leak. Anyway, feller told me about how the end of his "safety" harness got stuck in a tapering pinch point and had him stuck for a while in a leak.

His safety equipment almost got him killled.

That's what I've been arguing.

Let's not die!

Sorce
 

sorce

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Pertinent....

You have to judge wether or not it has gone dormant yet or not.

I have one juniper that JUST went dormant for this last cold drop.

Remember that 'swelling" or "moving" or "active" buds doesn't mean shit. Only leaves really mean anything.

I think it was @Dav4 recently spoke about buds opening but stalled from February?

Sorce
 

Lars Grimm

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This could have been prevented by having a proper cold greenhouse, or leaving the trees outside.
Especially in Cackalack.

I leave all my bigger trees outside on the ground, but the smaller ones I have in the shed. I'm not 100% sure what you mean by a 'proper cold greenhouse.' My setup for the smaller trees is a shed without windows and temperature controlled to prevent it from getting below freezing (heater kicks on at 32 degrees and kicks off at 35 degrees). Unless I had an air conditioning element, I couldn't really get it any cooler.
 

sorce

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I leave all my bigger trees outside on the ground, but the smaller ones I have in the shed. I'm not 100% sure what you mean by a 'proper cold greenhouse.' My setup for the smaller trees is a shed without windows and temperature controlled to prevent it from getting below freezing (heater kicks on at 32 degrees and kicks off at 35 degrees). Unless I had an air conditioning element, I couldn't really get it any cooler.

Them folks were thinking I was condemning a "proper cold greenhouse", or even a "right tested garage".

My argument was always against what makes this situation happen.

Like thinking "small" trees need more protection.

Why would they?

My 1/2in deep 3in across boxwood making it thru -18F merely on the ground is why I believe they don't need special "protection".

After all...

The largest bonsai pot is freezing straight thru just the same as a small one.
Straight thru.
Fish can survive this.
Tree roots can too!

Let em out!

Sorce
 

WNC Bonsai

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Them folks were thinking I was condemning a "proper cold greenhouse", or even a "right tested garage".

My argument was always against what makes this situation happen.

Like thinking "small" trees need more protection.

Why would they?

My 1/2in deep 3in across boxwood making it thru -18F merely on the ground is why I believe they don't need special "protection".

After all...

The largest bonsai pot is freezing straight thru just the same as a small one.
Straight thru.
Fish can survive this.
Tree roots can too!

Let em out!

Sorce
Fish do not survive freezing like tree roots! They survive because the ice that forms on the top of rivers and lakes is slightly less dense than cold water so it floats. So the water at the bottom of a stream or lake will freeze last, that’s how fish survive. If a stream or lake freezes to the bottom the fish will die!

As for quince the various species apparently have a chill hour requirement ranging from about 100-500 hours. Here in WNC we are already at 1192.5 chill hours and I bet Lars isn’t much different. Once they have met their chill requirement it only takes a few really warm days to get them to bud out. You need to start thinking outside the Chicago icebox.
 

sorce

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Fish do not survive freezing like tree roots!

Or do they?
Capture+_2020-01-12-14-36-50.png

Specifically the antifreeze part.

Hell alligators can survive it too!


You need to start thinking outside the Chicago icebox.

Like .....

Asking feller if he's gotten that far into dormancy already and previously being concerned with the fact that he's keeping things indoors that shouldn't be indoors on the first place?

Oh.

Ok.

Sorce
 

Warpig

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As for quince the various species apparently have a chill hour requirement ranigng from about 100-500 hours. Here in WNC we are already at 1192.5 chill hours and I bet Lars isn’t much different.
I'm thinking this might be part of it. Just went to check on mine after reading this and all still fast asleep, tho I dont have any quinces. These last couple days have been pushing into the 60's so not as high but still well above freezing. I hope it works out for you guys down south.
 

Lars Grimm

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Fish do not survive freezing like tree roots! They survive because the ice that forms on the top of rivers and lakes is slightly less dense than cold water so it floats. So the water at the bottom of a stream or lake will freeze last, that’s how fish survive. If a stream or lake freezes to the bottom the fish will die!

As for quince the various species apparently have a chill hour requirement ranging from about 100-500 hours. Here in WNC we are already at 1192.5 chill hours and I bet Lars isn’t much different. Once they have met their chill requirement it only takes a few really warm days to get them to bud out. You need to start thinking outside the Chicago icebox.

How did you get a measure of your chill hours?
 

Lars Grimm

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Or do they?
View attachment 278590

Specifically the antifreeze part.

Hell alligators can survive it too!




Like .....

Asking feller if he's gotten that far into dormancy already and previously being concerned with the fact that he's keeping things indoors that shouldn't be indoors on the first place?

Oh.

Ok.

Sorce

Fun fact: they use that antifreeze component from fish to make low fat ice cream that tastes smooth and not icy.
 
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