What to do, when to do it and on what species to manage growth in pines in bonsai

[BackyardBonsai]

Seriously if that is your best pine... I don't know what else to say. That one looks like a pre-bonsai at best. Am not a fan of classic conical look but that one is almost look like an octopus with tentacles all over the place.

 

[Fabledabel]

Your video was so bad, he had to come in and defend himself!

Firstly, amazing trees. They remind me of why I love pines. Secondly, Walter actually endorsed the video specifically in the comments. He didn't come in and defend himself from OP at all. He came in to clarify. No need to make it an attack on OP

 

[Adair M]

Firstly, amazing trees. They remind me of why I love pines. Secondly, Walter actually endorsed the video specifically in the comments. He didn't come in and defend himself from OP at all. He came in to clarify. No need to make it an attack on OP

The whole point of Raphael’s video was to clarify Walter’s technique.

If he had said it was “his attempt at performing Walter’s technique”, that’s one thing. But then to totally mess it up in a video that was supposed to “explain” it is... is... well, I’m at a loss for words.

 

[cheap_walmart_art]

Raphael, the information you try to share is for the most part accurate, but your presentation is so poor that the information gets lost. You do not “appear” to have first hand knowledge of the subject matter. You are just repeating something you have heard.

Have you ever played the telephone game? Where a bunch of people sit in a circle, and one person whispers something in one ear of the person next to him, and that person passes it on to the next, on to the next so that by the time it finally gets back to the original person, the message has totally changed?

That’s what you are doing. No one wants to hear to try to repeat a Ryan Neil lecture, especially without illustrations, demonstrations and examples.
You provide NO added value. In fact, it’s so disjointed, even an educated viewer like BVF got confused!

One thing you could do, is remove a complaint that many people have about the orifessional’s videos: people complain that the material that Ryan and Bjorn use to demonstrate with is so good, that “anyone” could make a good tree out of it! Lol!!!

I’m going to assume that you don’t have that kind of material, so you could demonstrate how to work on more “ordinary” material that the average bonsai enthusiast is likely to have access to. That would be “added value” than just trying to repeat Ryan’s words.

And, just in case you think I’m blowing hot air, here’s a few of my trees:

View attachment 252588View attachment 252589View attachment 252591

I know a thing or two about pines.

I would love to see someone with Ryan or Bjorn's level of knowledge do a video series using "attainable" material for us plebs.

 

[thumblessprimate1]

I would love to see someone with Ryan or Bjorn's level of knowledge do a video series using "attainable" material for us plebs.

Nursery stock can be good if you know what to look for and where. If you can get to know some people who can hook you up with places to collect trees, even better.

 

[MrWunderful]

I would love to see someone with Ryan or Bjorn's level of knowledge do a video series using "attainable" material for us plebs.

Ryan has done videos where he goes to normal nurseries, picks up material and works it. The two tht stand out are a cryptomeria and blue rug I think. They might even be free on youtube.

Edit: here it is:

 

[BobbyLane]

Ryan has done videos where he goes to normal nurseries, picks up material and works it. The two tht stand out are a cryptomeria and blue rug I think. They might even be free on youtube.

true. but even some of the field grown stumps he's picked up, the big field maple stump and raw linden spring to mind. that type of material isnt going to cost you an arm n leg either.

 

[Rafael Najmanovich]

lol. I do not need to see any more videos by you now. If you really think this, and are not saying it out of spite, than you really have no idea what you are talking about. Thousands like them? I would love to know where.

oh, please aesthetically it's cookie cutter bonsai. But I don't care if you like them, good for you. I wouldn't design it that way, even if everyone else in here or all judges in an exhibition like it. Like I said, it is taste and we can't discuss. but it is a fact that it is a copy or every second bonsai pine styled in the traditional manner.

 

[Rafael Najmanovich]

Obviously, you’re clueless. You’ve seen thousands of them? In Japan, maybe.

In your video, you never mentioned cutting back to two shoots. You never mentioned developing primary branches with alternating secondary branches. You never mentioned developing “top branches” to provide depth for pads. You never mentioned developing branches to have a triangular profile when viewed from the top. Your tree’s branches had a circular profile, and David had to draw it out for you.

In short, you are too inexperienced to be attempting to present an authoritative video!

As for “B’Nut police”... yes, I suppose there are times I act that way. It is to protect newbies from being misled by newbiers and wanna-bes.

Go back thru the thread and review the number of negative, or even constructive comments. Believe me, mist people would prefer not to give negative comments unless something REALLY deserves it. None of your videos have been particularly well received, you should take a step back and try to re-evaluate what you’re trying to do.

The best thing that’s happened with your video is Walter Pall came in and explained his Hedging process! Your video was so bad, he had to come in and defend himself! Are you proud of that?

Adair, the video was not about styling. The video was about growth management and energy balance. And even talking about style, Triangles, really? is that the only way it is supposed to be? hahaha. I return to what I said and this is the last time that I will comment on any criticism that is not focused on content. All comments where about the delivery, none about the techniques presented. I take those criticism seriously but that is secondary. This remains so, and then comes mister big expert with cookie cutter bonsai telling me what I should have discussed about styling pines, clearly anyone following your advice may end up with cookie cutter trees just like thousands in Japan. So yeah I call your bs for attacking the messenger and not the message, then telling me what I should have said (some of it correct if the video was about styling, which is not) and pretending that you're the big artist here when in fact you're probably a great bonsai craftsman. Next time you criticize my videos, criticize the information, otherwise you're not contributing to the conversation.

 

[bonsaichile]

Adair, the video was not about styling. The video was about growth management and energy balance. And even talking about style, Triangles, really? is that the only way it is supposed to be? hahaha. I return to what I said and this is the last time that I will comment on any criticism that is not focused on content. All comments where about the delivery, none about the techniques presented. I take those criticism seriously but that is secondary. This remains so, and then comes mister big expert with cookie cutter bonsai telling me what I should have discussed about styling pines, clearly anyone following your advice may end up with cookie cutter trees just like thousands in Japan. So yeah I call your bs for attacking the messenger and not the message, then telling me what I should have said (some of it correct if the video was about styling, which is not) and pretending that you're the big artist here when in fact you're probably a great bonsai craftsman. Next time you criticize my videos, criticize the information, otherwise you're not contributing to the conversation.

If you dismiss triangles, you don't understand esthetics at all. Look at any figurative painting, and try to see the composition in terms of basic geometrical figures, and maybe you will get it...

 

[coachspinks]

God, I love this forum... it's better then Netflix!!!

After sitting in class for eight and a half hours I needed this thread.

 

[JudyB]

Adair, the video was not about styling. The video was about growth management and energy balance. And even talking about style, Triangles, really? is that the only way it is supposed to be? hahaha. I return to what I said and this is the last time that I will comment on any criticism that is not focused on content. All comments where about the delivery, none about the techniques presented. I take those criticism seriously but that is secondary. This remains so, and then comes mister big expert with cookie cutter bonsai telling me what I should have discussed about styling pines, clearly anyone following your advice may end up with cookie cutter trees just like thousands in Japan. So yeah I call your bs for attacking the messenger and not the message, then telling me what I should have said (some of it correct if the video was about styling, which is not) and pretending that you're the big artist here when in fact you're probably a great bonsai craftsman. Next time you criticize my videos, criticize the information, otherwise you're not contributing to the conversation.

Style and technique and horticulture are hand in glove in bonsai. If you do not get this, then I think you have just not been working with bonsai long enough to understand this basic fact. As you mature, your aesthetic also matures (hopefully).

 

[Rafael Najmanovich]

If you dismiss triangles, you don't understand esthetics at all. Look at any figurative painting, and try to see the composition in terms of basic geometrical figures, and maybe you will get it...

Old trees in nature don’t understand aesthetics either. Even if I’m not mistaken Goshin has more circular pads than triangles.

 

[Rafael Najmanovich]

Style and technique and horticulture are hand in glove in bonsai. If you do not get this, then I think you have just not been working with bonsai long enough to understand this basic fact. As you mature, your aesthetic also matures (hopefully).

As far as sustainable design is concerned if you even know what I mean yes style and function are connected. And for sure as you mature your style does too, you understand what you like and what you don’t and stop copying other bonsai. Some people don’t get there.

 

[Vance Wood]

ROTFLMFAO!!!

Raphael, show me one of your pines. Post it here. Your best Pine. Prove to me (and everyone else) you actually have a clue.

You're not supposed to do that. I remember years ago when I was forced to walk the gauntlet for doing the same thing, now it seems you guys have become me.

 

[Adair M]

You're not supposed to do that. I remember years ago when I was forced to walk the gauntlet for doing the same thing, now it seems you guys have become me.

Vance, you’re my hero! You know that! Hope you’re doing well!

 

[Dav4]

oh, please aesthetically it's cookie cutter bonsai. But I don't care if you like them, good for you. I wouldn't design it that way, even if everyone else in here or all judges in an exhibition like it. Like I said, it is taste and we can't discuss. but it is a fact that it is a copy or every second bonsai pine styled in the traditional manner.

Dude, that bonsai is styled as a formal upright (Chokkan), a form of bonsai styling that is difficult to pull off successfully, and this one is done just about as well as any tree you'll find around. Calling this one "cookie cutter" isn't really improving your street cred here, I'm afraid...


...and what the hell would you have done differently with that tree with the ramrod straight and tall, tapering trunk, anyway.... seriously. I'd love to see a virtual of your vision for that one.

 

[Adair M]

Adair, the video was not about styling. The video was about growth management and energy balance. And even talking about style, Triangles, really? is that the only way it is supposed to be? hahaha. I return to what I said and this is the last time that I will comment on any criticism that is not focused on content. All comments where about the delivery, none about the techniques presented. I take those criticism seriously but that is secondary. This remains so, and then comes mister big expert with cookie cutter bonsai telling me what I should have discussed about styling pines, clearly anyone following your advice may end up with cookie cutter trees just like thousands in Japan. So yeah I call your bs for attacking the messenger and not the message, then telling me what I should have said (some of it correct if the video was about styling, which is not) and pretending that you're the big artist here when in fact you're probably a great bonsai craftsman. Next time you criticize my videos, criticize the information, otherwise you're not contributing to the conversation.

Raphael, part of “energy balance” and “growth management” is making sure you get “appropriate” growth. Growth in the proper places, and growth going in the proper direction. It make no sense to encourage growth going the wrong direction. Which is exactly what you’re going to get with your Mugo pruning!

You speak about Goshin. Yes, it was poorly maintained for decades. Fortunately, Owen Reich is restyling it to bring it back to Naka’s original concept, which was all about triangles!

Dude, I’m sorry, but you don’t know enough to realize that you don’t know everything! Once you realize that there is more you DON’T know than you DO know, only then will you actually begin to learn!

 

[bonsaichile]

Old trees in nature don’t understand aesthetics either. Even if I’m not mistaken Goshin has more circular pads than triangles.

Bonsais are not old trees in nature. Just that statements shows me that you don’t understand the first thing here. Good luck with your endeavors!

 

[Adair M]

oh, please aesthetically it's cookie cutter bonsai. But I don't care if you like them, good for you. I wouldn't design it that way, even if everyone else in here or all judges in an exhibition like it. Like I said, it is taste and we can't discuss. but it is a fact that it is a copy or every second bonsai pine styled in the traditional manner.

This tree:



Is all about “balance”. Every shoot has equal energy as every other shoot. All the needles are short. 3/4 inch. No cut needles. Every pad is dense, with thriving interior growth.

None of this happened by accident. This was accomplished by decandling at the proper time, in the proper manner with the strong areas of the tree repressed so that the weaker sections of the tree would be as strong as the strong sections at the end of the season. This was done with varying the length of the stubs of the remaining candle when decandling, and by pulling needles.

Did you talk about that? No.

Now, I understand that JBP is probably too cold tender to use in Montreal. So, it would make sense that you limit your discussion to the species that you, personally, work with.

I don’t grow Mugo. So I don’t tell anyone how they should treat them. Vance does, so I defer to his expertise. I don’t do tropicals. So I don’t tell anyone how to do them, either. My teacher does, though. I’ve heard him tell countless people how to do this or that with them. But since I don't do them, I don’t want to try to pretend I’m an expert, because I’m not. You, however, are pretending to be an expert because you have watched a video or two.