what to do with import "S" curve trees

[tmmason10]

I assuming that one is referring to those that originated the style some 200 years ago ???
Wow, if they only knew that what they were doing was not going to be convincing enough for some here at B-nut...

I don't necessarily have a strong stance whether s-shaped curved bonsai do or don't have a place in bonsai, but this quote is pretty funny.

The bad stigma comes from the fact that these are grown by the millions and pretty much sold on their way to death. Insufficient soil, instructions or directions, long shipping and holding periods, that by the time a beginner gets the tree it's on it's last legs. Then it dies unexpectedly and the bad stigma is added to these trees. There are similar looking trees at bonsai nurseries but they are in better shape. I don't think anyone thinks these trees are the pinnacle of bonsai but they do have their place.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Nice work with what you have. These trees as is can be a good beginning, but to take them to the next level you have to make a big cut above the first curve and regrow the upper trunk to develop some taper. Can also ground layer to improve the nebari (thinking of the elm). Be cautious when hacking the tree back, depending on the health and the species of the tree you may need to proceed in stages.

I agree with HB Smith. Think about what this tree might be if you chopped it just above the first branch.

 

[mcpesq817]

Ahhh...now I get it too. Post a couple contorted plants that happen to be in bonsai pots, ask a question you don’t want an answer to, then sit back and throw bombs at anyone who suggests your trees aren't little masterpieces. Clearly you're the knowledgeable one here...good luck with your little S-trees.

Looks like you got him pegged pretty well Brian. His goal here is clearly to win a lot of friends But then again, maybe I'm just arrogant

 

[Bill S]

Give some slack, he's still got a bad taste from the bar, but we don't do that out here(usually). I have one, got it as a cheap ($15) lets see what we can do with it. at first it was awefull, I did a couple of sessions to work out structure, a couple years later a root pruning on a tangled mess(probably 5 to 6 years min. in a nursery can), and after a few years of let it grow, and it actually doesn't look bad, as long as you look at it from the front viewing angle. Is it great, well no, but it was a good exercise in bonsai.

This pic is a couple of years old, not terrible until you look at it from the side, it comes up about 2", the 90's to the back, curving around to the front, a big question mark. With chasing the foliage back, and some removes, it's credible, still not what I would really want, but amazingly enough, it's a favorite amongst those that don't know Bo nsai.

 

[Attila Soos]

Sadly along with knowledge, often times comes arrogance... My opinion, of course...

I hope that being honest is not the same as being arrogant. After all, you are asking for peoples' opinions, right? That's why you started this thread.

When I look at the bench of some bonsai vendors, and see 50 trees showing the exact same S curve, I just think that it is ridiculous. It is not really the vendor's fault, because there are obviously buyers who like that stuff. But I feel free to express my distaste for them, and it is my choice to do so. And if someone asks my opinion on it, I will be honest about it.

BTW, it is not about creating a tree that looks natural. A bonsai doesn't have to look natural, to be a good bonsai. It only has to look aesthetically pleasing, while evoking a tree (fictional, or realistic).
The greatest sin of the S curve, in my opinion, is that it is boring and aesthetically unpleasing. But again, this is according to my taste. I have no claim to universal truth in this regard. Taste in art is always personal.

So, anything that you do, to take out the S-curve, will be an improvement in my view.

 

[rockm]

"I assuming that one is referring to those that originated the style some 200 years ago ???
Wow, if they only knew that what they were doing was not going to be convincing enough for some here at B-nut..."

The mass-marketed "S" shaped trees are the product of convenience for the mass producer and not really that of an artist intent on desiging a tree.

"I assuming that one is referring to those that originated the style some 200 years ago ???
Wow, if they only knew that what they were doing was not going to be convincing enough for some here at B-nut..."

Horai is far more than a simple"S" shaped trunk. The design, 200 or 300 years ago, was aimed at replicating a writhing dragon with all manner of twists and turns both side to side and front to back and even up and down. It is intended to be a rugged, wild-looking form. The smooth even curves of the mass-produced "S" shaped trunks doesn't really fit it.
http://capebonsaikai.co.za/styles/157-raft-neagari-and-horai.html

 

[Attila Soos]

" The design, 200 or 300 years ago, was aimed at replicating a writhing dragon with all manner of twists and turns both side to side and front to back and even up and down. It is intended to be a rugged, wild-looking form. The smooth even curves of the mass-produced "S" shaped trunks doesn't really fit it.
http://capebonsaikai.co.za/styles/157-raft-neagari-and-horai.html

Good points.
I love a well made horai style tree, such as the one drawn by D. Koreshoff. This is an example how bonsai doesn't have to look like a natural tree, and still be dramatic and eye-catching. Just like those contorted little shimpaku, with twists and turns that make one dizzy.The lame S-curve has nothing to do with this.

 

[stacy allen muse]

Ahhh...now I get it too. Post a couple contorted plants that happen to be in bonsai pots, ask a question you don’t want an answer to, then sit back and throw bombs at anyone who suggests your trees aren't little masterpieces. Clearly you're the knowledgeable one here...good luck with your little S-trees.

Let me state for the record that I posted this post in the first place mainly to have a discussion of what to do with them. I stated that some don't like them, I also stated that often times beginners have these. I appreciated the comments that those had posted, but I don't remember asking a question of what to do with my actual trees. I was just suggesting what to do with these.
So that you might remember I thought I would post it again.

With all the imported "S" curve trees out there that have flooded the market lately, the question is what to do to style them in a somewhat realistic fashion. I think the trick is when wiring branches, to continue with simillar curves, although not as drastic as the trunk it self. As the branches go out trhe curve become less subtle, or not at all.

The first is a ficus, that was originally picked up at home depot for $10, and that I have done multiple wiring on.
The second is a chinese elm, that was given to me with two braches and three leaves for a friend. I have done alot of work just increasing branches and foilage, and there is still alot of work to be done, but I think it is on it's way. Just wished someone who worked on it before import, would of used a wire that wouldn't of left rust stains behind... but, unfortunately this is pretty common.

There are alot of individuals that do bonsai, that don't care for these "s" curve imports and I can truely understand. I think for the most part they are often found on "beginners" shelves, comming straight from the box store after being imported, and are left to remain that way indefinitely.
I do think they have a place in bonsai, and I think it goes to show you that if done right I think they can come off rather believeable.

Then you are right I got answers that I didn't like... mainly because a vast majority expressed a view that they were pretty much crap, and to lob it off and start over to make a more realistic tree which is fine... but it doesn't actually address or solve how one should work with these type of trees, and what they should do with them. Also, seeing that I had allready posted that there were some that didn't like these... seems a little redundant for one to therefore post a opinion saying so...

Instead you offered some arrogant crap about how these are are only beginner trees and those who know anything about bonsai would have moved past these... Then there was Attila's opinion, of how these trees look ridiculous, and give bonsai a bad name. To which I replied that there is a tendency to snub one's nose at anything that isn't grown in a realistic approach, here at b-nut. Which between your and attila's post I think you pretty much proved my point...

I really didn't think I was going to be some type of champion of the "S" curve trunk here when I originally posted it...nor would I ever had wanted to choose this. Having said that at the same time it pisses me off when the only bonsai that is acceptable here seems to be the "elitist" view of only a realistic tree. That no other are acceptable... Sorry, but I am here to say this is anything but the truth, that "S" trunks are part of bonsai and have a history as well... despite what yours or others, or even my views might be of them...

Sorry, also wanted to add that frankly, I am not very concerned whether or not these trees are masterpieces... for that really wasn't the point of the whole thread... but thanks...

 

[stacy allen muse]

Being a tad provocative, eh? As ye reap . . .

At any rate, it isn't the "S" curve that is so awful in these things, it is the geometry.

And that is fine... which in my original post I said
"there is still alot of work to be done..."

then in response to your post I said
As far as going straight up towards the sky, I can see on the elm where this might be a problem... but when said and done, this will eventually be covered with foilage.

As far as being a tad provocative... can you honestly say that what I posted is untrue ???
I know it is common practice for everyone here to strive to make very realistic trees, and I commend everyone for it... I also sadly think that there is a trend here at B-NUT to kinda snub one's nose at anything that doesn't seem realistic... and I think this show a lack of understanding and respect of the art of bonsai.

 

[stacy allen muse]

I agree with HB Smith. Think about what this tree might be if you chopped it just above the first branch.

thanks, will consider... I appreciate it !

 

[stacy allen muse]

Looks like you got him pegged pretty well Brian. His goal here is clearly to win a lot of friends But then again, maybe I'm just arrogant

Sorry dude, but I didn't come to b-nut to like make friends and shit... I came here to discuss bonsai. I am not trying to be some big pain in the ass... but at the same time if I see something I do not believe is true, I am going to say so reguardless... If that makes me your friend, then fine, but if not than so be it... when Brian figures this out, then he will have me pegged pretty well.

As far as you being arrogant... I don't personally remember me calling anyone arrogant... might have said there is a tendency of some peoples views of what makes a bonsai to be a bit arrogant.

I like your use of the rolledeyes thing though... it's cute !

 

[stacy allen muse]

Give some slack, he's still got a bad taste from the bar, but we don't do that out here(usually). I have one, got it as a cheap ($15) lets see what we can do with it. at first it was awefull, I did a couple of sessions to work out structure, a couple years later a root pruning on a tangled mess(probably 5 to 6 years min. in a nursery can), and after a few years of let it grow, and it actually doesn't look bad, as long as you look at it from the front viewing angle. Is it great, well no, but it was a good exercise in bonsai.

This pic is a couple of years old, not terrible until you look at it from the side, it comes up about 2", the 90's to the back, curving around to the front, a big question mark. With chasing the foliage back, and some removes, it's credible, still not what I would really want, but amazingly enough, it's a favorite amongst those that don't know Bo nsai.

Nope, sorry Bill has nothing to do with the Bar.

Was actually trying to put out some ideas, and approaches for what one might do to these styles of tree, rather than lobbing off the whole thing. Was hoping that some might also do the same, and perhaps share some of their experiences...

So, I thank you for sharing, and I appreciate it !!!

As far as yor tree, Let me ask you a question... If you had to make the side of your tree the front, incorporating the "S"shape trunk into the design, how would you style your branch structure to make it seem believable?

Can we see a pic from the side ???

 

[stacy allen muse]

I hope that being honest is not the same as being arrogant. After all, you are asking for peoples' opinions, right? That's why you started this thread.

When I look at the bench of some bonsai vendors, and see 50 trees showing the exact same S curve, I just think that it is ridiculous. It is not really the vendor's fault, because there are obviously buyers who like that stuff. But I feel free to express my distaste for them, and it is my choice to do so. And if someone asks my opinion on it, I will be honest about it.

BTW, it is not about creating a tree that looks natural. A bonsai doesn't have to look natural, to be a good bonsai. It only has to look aesthetically pleasing, while evoking a tree (fictional, or realistic).
The greatest sin of the S curve, in my opinion, is that it is boring and aesthetically unpleasing. But again, this is according to my taste. I have no claim to universal truth in this regard. Taste in art is always personal.

So, anything that you do, to take out the S-curve, will be an improvement in my view.

I will ask you the same question I asked Bill in the previous post... And what was my intention of this thread.
How would "you", "Attila" then make an "S"curve trunk look aesthetically pleasing then... obviously without being able to lobb it off... sorrry, but lobbing it off, is too easy of a way out.

 

[stacy allen muse]

"I assuming that one is referring to those that originated the style some 200 years ago ???
Wow, if they only knew that what they were doing was not going to be convincing enough for some here at B-nut..."

The mass-marketed "S" shaped trees are the product of convenience for the mass producer and not really that of an artist intent on desiging a tree.
Yes, I would agree with this, but where does the orginal design come from... These mass producers that you speak of didn't just wake up and decide to start forming there trees into an "S" shape just because... They picked this shape probally because it was a shape that was very common to that region, and it added interest to an otherwise would be straight trunk.
"I assuming that one is referring to those that originated the style some 200 years ago ???
Wow, if they only knew that what they were doing was not going to be convincing enough for some here at B-nut..."

Horai is far more than a simple"S" shaped trunk. The design, 200 or 300 years ago, was aimed at replicating a writhing dragon with all manner of twists and turns both side to side and front to back and even up and down. It is intended to be a rugged, wild-looking form. The smooth even curves of the mass-produced "S" shaped trunks doesn't really fit it.
Says who ???
I'm not exactly sure how a style with all manner of twist and turns, doesn't really fit a "S" shape trunk, which has all manner of twist and turns ???

http://capebonsaikai.co.za/styles/157-raft-neagari-and-horai.html

Sorry but this sounds a little "topsy turvey"...

 

[rockm]

"These mass producers that you speak of didn't just wake up and decide to start forming there trees into an "S" shape just because... They picked this shape probally because it was a shape that was very common to that region, and it added interest to an otherwise would be straight trunk."

What would you say if some of these producers were in Israel? Some are...The reason producers "pick" this design has more to do with how easy it is to do, than any historical context. Take a stake, a whippy sapling, tie the sapling at the bottom to the stake, push the sapling down until it bends one way, tie it again to the stake at the bend, continue...Takes about five minutes...cuts down on labor and can be done repeatedly with the same predictable result (that sells).

"Says who ???
I'm not exactly sure how a style with all manner of twist and turns, doesn't really fit a "S" shape trunk, which has all manner of twist and turns ???"

A look at the Koreshoff drawing will show you. Front to back, up and down, side to side. The "s" is done in a mostly flat two dimensional frame, because of the way the trees are produced.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

By the way, for the record I have a medium-sized (24") shimpaku s-shaped tree that has gotten rather large in the 16 or so years I have had it. I know I should "fix" it - but even so I enjoy it for what it is.

And Rockm - it may just be that people started creating s-shaped tree because they didn't know any better. No one taught them the basics of bonsai, in even the most rudimentary way, and they just knew (from memory) that the trunk had movement. Clearly in some cases the s-shape was created when the tree was young, and then they let it grow out for years without wiring so that the top of the trunk grew straight while the bottom remained bent...

 

[Bill S]

Don't have that side view Stacy, if I push to have the S view as the front, I would probably cut it back to one of the first branches and angle the planting, to go with a cascade, semi at the least. It really is a question mark shaped juni, just the bottom verticle section is a bit shorter than what you think of with a question mark.

Now if you are looking at Elms with this shape, make sure to see what lies below the soil level, these have a tendency to have a good chunk of trunk below the soil level, making an entirely different situation.

 

[jk_lewis]

How would "you", . . . . then make an "S"curve trunk look aesthetically pleasing then...

Well, you could start by making the bends less uniform, less equally spaced, and less two dimensional.

As someone said, the standard S-shaped bonsai is a product of laziness on the part of mass producers of this stuff. Imagine! Three or four (or more) ACRES of these things in endless rows!

 

[JudyB]

I wasn't going to post anymore on this thread, but I really can't help asking this question that I believe is pertinent to the discussion, although not to the original intent of the thread topic...

How many bonsai-ists have these very types of trees brought into the bonsai community? Yes, I know that most of them die in the hands of beginners, but by then the "seed" is planted in some of these same beginners, and it can become their passion. How many of you started out this very same way? Until you get into the hobby, that can be the only contact many have with the art. Easily accessible to the public, affordable... How would the ordinary mall shopper know where and how to get better stock to begin with? And would we want them to? Better to kill one of the billions of clones, than a one of a kind.

On the other hand, each time someone buys one of these, it does perpetuate the business, much like the puppy mills and pet "stores" who sell them.

warm fuzzy puppies
leaves crisply falling from trees
greenhouse warms in sun

 

[rockm]

Judy,

I have no quarrel with mallsai. They're the "entry drug" for this sport. I owned more than a dozen when I got started. Those trees taught me a lot when I started out. I thought they were terrific, for a few years, until I began to appreciate better trees. Mallsai are basically the cannon-fodder for learning and appreciating bonsai.

What I do have a problem with is saying they're something they're really not. They're just not great bonsai. Thinking they are CAN be a kind of dead end or at best, a sidetrack, for bonsaiists. You eventually learn why they're not great bonsai and work to improve them--until you find that effort is futile (or not, in some cases).