what to do with import "S" curve trees

october

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I have to say that I appreciate and like both styles in your pics, and for different reasons. I think they both seemed to work rather well here, and appreciate the sharing, thanks!!!
One more question, just out of curiosity... with time and seperation from this tree, now that you look back at the photos, which style do you like ??? and why ???

Hello Stacy..Sorry for not replying sooner..This elm was purchased about 11 years ago. It was one one of my first "real" bonsai so to speak. I was just starting out and did not know much back then. However, the tree appealed to my beginner's eye. It had a definite shape and looked like an actual tree. As my bosnai eye improved, the penjing idea was the only other thing I could come up with to escape the no taper and S curve problem. I did enjoy the penjing idea. However, looking back, the tree did make an ok informal upright. If I had not changed it maybe someone who was just starting bonsai would have enjoyed it like I first did. Also, I think I liked the original, informal upright style better.

Rob
 

Bill S

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Ross, I like what you have done with your elm, I think you have chosen the best parts of what your tree had to offer, and are using it to it's best advantage.

QUOTE]

But what Ross did with his is lop it off.

Another question you raised is "Then why buy it", simple answer for that is buying a base, then grow out what you want it to look like, it's done with "mallsai, collected trees(often collected for trunks only), and even "starter materials", a lot of it depends on the "styles" one might like to deal with. I have grown cuttings for 5-6 years to hack them back to a couple inches, then see what grows back, and work with that.

Bonsai - Tree in a pot, is the simple answer.
 

mcpesq817

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Have you ever watched "American Idol?" Ever notice how the people who have really bad voices always argue the loudest and longest, resort to profanity and name calling, claim they know better than everyone else and that everyone else is out to get them?

Well, just sayin':rolleyes:

Maybe he's the William Hung of bonsai?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqmy5qrvaVQ
 
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"As far as what you "actually" think of my trees, dude I could give a rats ass what you think... but what "REALLY" matters to me, is the bullshit idea that you seem to be the only one who can determine what is and what is not a bonsai, based purely on some rules that you seem to make up as you go along. "

Have you ever watched "American Idol?" Ever notice how the people who have really bad voices always argue the loudest and longest, resort to profanity and name calling, claim they know better than everyone else and that everyone else is out to get them?

Well, just sayin':rolleyes:

I thank you for your response... and despite what you or the others might think of me.
I would hope that you would feel that I brought more to B-NUT, than just a "bad voice", because I didn't always agree with you ???

I don't claim to know better than everyone else... but what I do claim know, is that unfortunetly rather than trying trying to deal with this type of material, and come together to try and come up with solutions, we had to instead go through some rediculous discussion over whether or not it was a "bonsai".

As far as everyone else being out to get me... dude, if I thought everyone here was out to get me, I wouldn't bother posting anymore... with that said, I am not going to agree with someone just because "Everyone" else does... I am entitled to my opinions as well, and will continue to call it like I see it. I assume you would do the same.

Smoke posted comments about me supporting crappy bonsai material, and by doing so I might somehow loose some sort of credibility... I don't really care what others here might think of my "credibility", or whether or not they think I am good at doing Bonsai. What I do care about is that I am honest, and sincere in what I post, whether we butt heads or not !!!

Just Saying...
 
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Ross, I like what you have done with your elm, I think you have chosen the best parts of what your tree had to offer, and are using it to it's best advantage.

QUOTE]

But what Ross did with his is lop it off.

Another question you raised is "Then why buy it", simple answer for that is buying a base, then grow out what you want it to look like, it's done with "mallsai, collected trees(often collected for trunks only), and even "starter materials", a lot of it depends on the "styles" one might like to deal with. I have grown cuttings for 5-6 years to hack them back to a couple inches, then see what grows back, and work with that.

Bonsai - Tree in a pot, is the simple answer.

Yes, but seeing that all we seemed to doing with this post was argue, I gave up looking for other solutions than cutting... despite how this whole rediculous thread has come arround. I do understand that cutting is a part of styling a bonsai... and I am not speaking for everyone, but far to often I have seen way to many posts here at B-NUT where a solution to one's problem could have easily been solved with some wire and a re-style... But, sadly this is a whole nother thread posting which I don't want to get into... seeing that this one kinda tanked.

I also want to say, that what Ross did is not wrong by any means, and that I like what he has done... I was just hoping some more ideas might be tossed around which might give other alternatives as well... so when one is unlucky enough to lay one's hands on one in the first place like has been suggested, perhaps this might give some ideas.
 
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So, some of the suggestions and ideas put forth besides cutting:

Introduce curves into the upper part of the existing trunk \ allow new growth to be shaped in the s-bend school (Nebari)

considered rotating the tree to a new front so that the side to side motion becomes lessened. (mcpesq817)

a raft style, with the "S" laying on its side on the ground. (edprocoat)

conceal what's not realistic. (Brian Van Fleet)

make the bends less uniform, less equally spaced, and less two dimensional. (JKL)

taking the uniform two dimensional bends and roughing them up a bit could produce a horai style (Rockm)

wire branches up to get more curves and taper. S-shaped trees can always use more S's (Si Nguyen)

I think these are all viable solutions to solving the problems of what to do do with these types of trunks, and obviously one can cut.

Any more ideas???
 

Bill S

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I suppose that you could use these for major branch bending practice, and see if they could be twisted into something better, but an earlier poster covered many of our (B Nut followers) views. Often a piece of material is just junk in what ever style or artform it is being judged by, many of us here have graduated away from even using this kind of materials anymore. When you have a piece like this, and you do decide to work on it, often it is as an experiment, or a decision to use it as a long term project.

I suppose it is possible that we Americans try to achieve the same kind of results that the Japanese have perfected, and typically there wouldn't be "fixed" S curve trees so off in another direction.
 

tmmason10

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It used to be on the World Bonsai Federation website, but that site is gone.

Here is a cached copy (click on the word "Impatient?", to load faster):

http://web.archive.org/web/20080222214020/http://www.bonsai-wbff.org/shimpaku/main.shtml

It's a gem of an article.
Agreed, it is a gem. Amazing history I thoroughly enjoyed reading it. That would be pretty bad ass to go hunting and find a twisted, gnarly, natural looking Shimpaku bonsai.
 

Attila Soos

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Agreed, it is a gem. Amazing history I thoroughly enjoyed reading it. That would be pretty bad ass to go hunting and find a twisted, gnarly, natural looking Shimpaku bonsai.

Glad you liked it.
It's educational, as well as inspirational.
One may ask the question "How is this relevant to us? We will never have a chance to own such an amazing gem, so we might as well forget about it."
I think it's relevant in the sense that we should see those trees as a standard that we want to aspire for. And not settle for mediocrity.
We may not be lucky enough to find a 3 foot-tall and several hundred years-old gnarled juniper, but we can re-create its power on a much smaller scale, and in a much shorter time. We need to study those trees and learn from them, as well as from the people who work on them.

As far as the S-curve trees are concerned, yes, we can do certain things to mitigate the negative effect of the S-curve. Basically, we can hide a portion of the trunk in question behind foliage. Or we can look at them from a different angle, so we don't see all the shortcomings. But at the end of the day, there are only three rational explanations for not getting rid of the S-curve:

1) we either like the S-curve
or
2) the S-curve adds value to the design, that will be very hard to replace by re-growing the trunk

...and the third one, hopefully doesn't apply to us:

3) we only have a few months to live, so there is no time to re-grow part of the trunk.

So, these are the only three explanations that I can think of, which would make us leave the S-curve as it is.

Let me briefly address each.

1) If one likes the look of the S-curve, then power to him. It's hard to argue with taste. But he should expect a lot of disapproval from the bonsai community, and for good reason. He can still enjoy the peculiar shape of his tree in the privacy of his backyard, without showing it to anybody.

2) The S-curve may be unattractive, but it may have other redeeming values, such as ancient bark, interesting deadwood, or other unique features, such as a hollow trunk. In this case one should mitigate the curves by partially hiding it with foliage and growing new branches in places that make the curve less uniform. Also, there are many cases when the so-called S-curve is not a clean-cut, simple S-curve, but a borderline case that somewhat reminds us of the S-curve. In this case, it will be much more worthwhile to work with what we have, assuming that the existing trunk has other attractive features due mostly to the age of the tree.

3) ...sorry, this one needs no further explanation.

In every other case in which the above 3 do not apply, the best is to remove part of the curve and re-grow the trunk. This is particularly important in the case of young trees, where the whole thing can be re-grown in a few years time and then we don't have to spend the rest of our lives trying to hide this shortcoming. It's like having a car with a bad engine. Are you going to keep patching it up every other year, or just get a new one and be done with it. But if you have a bad engine that is vintage, and has historical value, than it may be worth trying to fix it.
 
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tmmason10

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Glad you liked it.
It's educational, as well as inspirational.
One may ask the question "How is this relevant to us? We will never have a chance to own such an amazing gem, so we might as well forget about it."
I think it's relevant in the sense that we should see those trees as a standard that we want to aspire for. And not settle for mediocrity.
We may not be lucky enough to find a 3 foot-tall and several hundred years-old gnarled juniper, but we can re-create its power on a much smaller scale, and in a much shorter time. We need to study those trees and learn from them, as well as from the people who work on them.

Well put and agreed in the fullest. I have seen some threads about twisting young junipers lately in an attempt to create yamadori styled bonsai. I may need to buy some Shimpaku whips and give this a shot someday. If you have any more great links for reading material I'd love to see them, gives me something to do for the train ride home.
 

tmmason10

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In every other case in which the above 3 do not apply, the best is to remove part of the curve and re-grow the trunk. This is particularly important in the case of young trees, where the whole thing can be re-grown in a few years time and then we don't have to spend the rest of our lives trying to hide this shortcoming. It's like having a car with a bad engine. Are you going to keep patching it up every other year, or just get a new one and be done with it. But if you have a bad engine that is vintage, and has historical value, than it may be worth trying to fix it.

Also well said.
 

rockm

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"We may not be lucky enough to find a 3 foot-tall and several hundred years-old gnarled juniper, but we can re-create its power on a much smaller scale, and in a much shorter time. We need to study those trees and learn from them, as well as from the people who work on them."

Happily, finding spectacular trees in the U.S. has been happening for a while now.
A gander around Jason's now defunct site shows how far things have come in the last few years. http://jasonsbonsai.blogspot.com/2008/04/huge-ponderosa-pine.html
or around Bonsai Mirai:
http://www.bonsaimirai.com/announcements/one-big-bad-ponderosa-pine/

There have been persistent rumors the Japanese have started pining for U.S. collected pines, although I've not seen anyhing to back that up.
 
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Attila Soos

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Happily, finding spectacular trees in the U.S. has been happening for a while now.
A gander around Jason's now defunct site shows how far things have come in the last few years. http://jasonsbonsai.blogspot.com/2008/04/huge-ponderosa-pine.html

There have been persistent rumors the Japanese have started pining for U.S. collected pines, although I've not seen anyhing to back that up.

Yes, I have no doubt that if someone in the US has the desire to own top quality yamadori, there is no limitation to that, except one's own procrastination. It may take a while, and it may take some hard work, but it can be done. Of course, the first step is the hardest: to get off the couch :)
 

Attila Soos

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Well put and agreed in the fullest. I have seen some threads about twisting young junipers lately in an attempt to create yamadori styled bonsai. I may need to buy some Shimpaku whips and give this a shot someday. If you have any more great links for reading material I'd love to see them, gives me something to do for the train ride home.

Yes, working with shimpaku whips to create yamadori style material is great fun, if one has a patch of land available for growing in the ground. Otherwise, it's a bit tedious and too slow for my taste. I have abut 50 small shimps growing in my backyard, and I am planning to do some serious work with them this coming spring.

The link I recommend is the World of Bonsai video series, (Series 1 and Series 2), created by Lindsay Farr, you can spend many hours of joy by watching those great videos.

http://bonsaifarm.tv/wob-series-2/

I actually just ordered the complete set of DVDs, which is a little pricy, but what the heck. I am sure that Lindsay put a small fortune into producing those videos, so he deserves some payback for it. He is the only person in the world who created such a video project, and that is an amazing feat. I wish we had more people with his energy and enthusiasm.

But the video on the Bonsai Farm website is free.

BTW, the videos do address the subject of working with young whips, I don't remember which episode. But there are other articles out there, that address this issue in more detail. However, I don't have any particular link in mind, at the moment.
 
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tmmason10

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Yes, working with shimpaku whips to create yamadori style material is great fun, if one has a patch of land available for growing in the ground. Otherwise, it's a bit tedious and too slow for my taste. I have abut 50 small shimps growing in my backyard, and I am planning to do some serious work with them this coming spring.

The link I recommend is the World of Bonsai video series, (Series 1 and Series 2), created by Lindsay Farr, you can spend many hours of joy by watching those great videos.

http://bonsaifarm.tv/wob-series-2/

I actually just ordered the complete set of DVDs, which is a little pricy, but what the heck. I am sure that Lindsay put a small fortune into producing those videos, so he deserves some payback for it. He is the only person in the world who created such a video project, and that is an amazing feat. I wish we had more people with his energy and enthusiasm.

But the video on the Bonsai Farm website is free.

BTW, the videos do address the subject of working with young whips, I don't remember which episode. But there are other articles out there, that address this issue in more detail. However, I don't have any particular link in mind, at the moment.

I have seen some of those videos but not all yet. I also enjoy the bjorvalabonsai video's on youtube.

I can plant some in the ground, is there a recommended place for buying shimpaku whips?
 
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didn't someone just list some shimps for sale in the tree for sale section ???
 

Smoke

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Well put and agreed in the fullest. I have seen some threads about twisting young junipers lately in an attempt to create yamadori styled bonsai. I may need to buy some Shimpaku whips and give this a shot someday. If you have any more great links for reading material I'd love to see them, gives me something to do for the train ride home.

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4789&highlight=yamadori+juniper
 
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