What to do with Low Growth on JBP

[AndyJ]

Hey folks.

I’ve got a couple of JBP’s that I’ve got in large pond baskets and have been growing for a few years. On each of them, I let one of the top candles grow strong and these have now turned into a leader of a couple of feet. My trunk isn’t as thick as I want yet so I’m imagining another couple of years at least for them to grow on. (I recall @Adair M posting some pictures of JBP’s in baskets with really long leaders - this is the idea that I’m shooting for. Unfortunately, I can’t find the thread.)

The bottom of each tree is now a clump of unruly branches - much shorter than what’s growing in the top. Should I be developing the bottom of the tree even though I’m letting a sacrifice grow away and don’t have a trunk the size I want? I mean, candle cutting, shoot selection, needle plucking, removing needles below branches etc,etc

I would get some photos to show you the trees but they’re in the middle of my grow bed surrounded by other trees!

Thanks all

Andy

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I think developing the bottom of the tree is the way to go.
Let's say hypothetically you wouldn't, and you'd end up with a fat trunk with long and leggy low branches. That would be hard to work with.
Let's say hypothetically you would develop the lower parts, you'd end up with a fat trunk and branches made to fit a small tree according to scale.

I just don't know how far one should go in refinement. It could very well be that if the bottom branches are made too weak, that they'll just die to give the escape branch leader a boost.

 

[Dav4]

You need to decide how big the future tree will be and whether those low branches could be part of the final design. If you're growing a shohin trunk and you're lucky enough to have potential keeper low branches, you do need to start developing them. Wiring, de-candling, and needle thinning are all techniques that can be used as needed down low now, even as the sacrifice branch runs wild. You should be reducing the sacrifice branch to one main leader and reduce the number of needles on it so it doesn't shade out those lower branches. Finally, I always keep more of those low branches then I'll ultimately need but remove as needed as the tree progresses.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Look at developing JBP as a tale of two trees. Some branches you keep short and determine as final branches. These should be on the outside of curves. Other branches are allowed to run long, as sacrifice branches. Strip low needles from these so they don’t shade out final branches. Grow these so the scars aren’t out front and obvious as you remove them.

Pines in development look goofy for a while, but a single growing season is transformative with JBP, if you know what you’re doing.

An example, before and after fall work and branch selection on a developing JBP.

 

[AndyJ]

Thanks gents that makes things a little clearer.

Great pictures @Brian Van Fleet thank you. I don’t feel so bad now knowing that’s what I’ve got to do with mine. It kinda made sense that I should be developing those lower branches but when you see pictures it’s really helpful.

 

[Adair M]

Here is the picture of Telperion Farm’s JBP grow out bed:



As you can see, they pruned the bottom branches short while letting the sacrifice branches grow up to 15 feet!

I don’t know if they decandled, but they certainly kept the low branches pruned while the lower trunks were thickening. It doesn’t appear they did any wiring while they were growing them.

Jim Grebel grew a lot of Atlas Cedars in the ground, and he used both sacrifice branches and wiring to develop his trees while they were in the ground fattening up.

If you look at Eric Schader’s thread “a few pine seeds 6 years later”, you will see examples off JBP he grew in colanders he grew using sacrifice branches and wire.

 

[AndyJ]

Here is the picture of Telperion Farm’s JBP grow out bed:

View attachment 340347

As you can see, they pruned the bottom branches short while letting the sacrifice branches grow up to 15 feet!

I don’t know if they decandled, but they certainly kept the low branches pruned while the lower trunks were thickening. It doesn’t appear they did any wiring while they were growing them.

Jim Grebel grew a lot of Atlas Cedars in the ground, and he used both sacrifice branches and wiring to develop his trees while they were in the ground fattening up.

If you look at Eric Schader’s thread “a few pine seeds 6 years later”, you will see examples off JBP he grew in colanders he grew using sacrifice branches and wire.

That’s the picture! Thanks @Adair M - yes, I can see the short growth low down. That’s what I wanted to see, that’s what I want to try and replicate. They look like they’re planted in the ground rather than a grow basket? I wonder how long it would take to grow a 15ft sacrifice branch in a JBP!

 

[garywood]

Andy, Dave and Brian made excellent comments about knowing what size tree you want. That dictates how to go about pruning/training.I worked at Telperion on the trees Adair showed and they were grown to be larger trees. Principles are roughly the same for either large or small but there are enough differences that can cost time or size. The pics of the pines are in "grow bags" in the ground. If you count the whorl spacing on the tree you can get a rough estimate of years.. One point, if your pines are in the middle of a grow bed make sure they have enough room around them to grow and get sun.

 

[Adair M]

That’s the picture! Thanks @Adair M - yes, I can see the short growth low down. That’s what I wanted to see, that’s what I want to try and replicate. They look like they’re planted in the ground rather than a grow basket? I wonder how long it would take to grow a 15ft sacrifice branch in a JBP!

I don’t know how long it took. 20 years? Because, there were multiple chops of sacrifice branches on my Telperion Tree:



This tree is 9 inches across at the soil level, and is 14 inches tall above the rim.

 

[Adair M]

the sacrifice branches in the photo of the trees in the ground appear to be 6 or seven years old, judging from the nodes. So, doing that 3 times to get the taper means it takes about 18 years.

 

[sorce]

turned into a leader

It's semantics unless you are trying to build a tree with the "leader", as you would a Deciduous tree. Then these words become quite meaningful.

I think it's important in this scenario to understand these terms as completely different.
Sacrifice vs. Leader.

Makes those low branches and their care a bit more important.

Sorce

 

[garywood]

@Adair M, I'm glad you posted the last tree because it is the best visual explanation possible. If this tree were grown with small tree technique it would never or at least in the next few hundred years have that proportion. Now if a small tree was the objective, it would would have lost all proportion after the 3rd or 4th year. By the way, good job!

 

[parhamr]

Here is the picture of Telperion Farm’s JBP grow out bed:

View attachment 340347

As you can see, they pruned the bottom branches short while letting the sacrifice branches grow up to 15 feet!

I don’t know if they decandled, but they certainly kept the low branches pruned while the lower trunks were thickening. It doesn’t appear they did any wiring while they were growing them.

Jim Grebel grew a lot of Atlas Cedars in the ground, and he used both sacrifice branches and wiring to develop his trees while they were in the ground fattening up.

If you look at Eric Schader’s thread “a few pine seeds 6 years later”, you will see examples off JBP he grew in colanders he grew using sacrifice branches and wire.

From direct knowledge — no, Telperion did not decandle in the grow beds. They did not specifically wire for refinement, but here and there would tie a branch upward, wrapping around the trunk, to direct it upwards. That was usually to build more sacrifice branches.

 

[parhamr]

That’s the picture! Thanks @Adair M - yes, I can see the short growth low down. That’s what I wanted to see, that’s what I want to try and replicate. They look like they’re planted in the ground rather than a grow basket? I wonder how long it would take to grow a 15ft sacrifice branch in a JBP!

the sacrifice branches in the photo of the trees in the ground appear to be 6 or seven years old, judging from the nodes. So, doing that 3 times to get the taper means it takes about 18 years.

Yes, the Telperion leaders could be counted by one year for each whorl/node. They regularly produced 3-foot internode distances.

 

[AndyJ]

I don’t know how long it took. 20 years? Because, there were multiple chops of sacrifice branches on my Telperion Tree:

View attachment 340369

This tree is 9 inches across at the soil level, and is 14 inches tall above the rim.

Brilliant tree @Adair M - something to aspire to. Thank you for sharing

 

[AndyJ]

Andy, Dave and Brian made excellent comments about knowing what size tree you want. That dictates how to go about pruning/training.I worked at Telperion on the trees Adair showed and they were grown to be larger trees. Principles are roughly the same for either large or small but there are enough differences that can cost time or size. The pics of the pines are in "grow bags" in the ground. If you count the whorl spacing on the tree you can get a rough estimate of years.. One point, if your pines are in the middle of a grow bed make sure they have enough room around them to grow and get sun.

Thanks Gary - that makes sense and it’s something I often forget when planning trees. Also, ref the grow bed, they are surrounded by deciduous trees that are a lot smaller than they are. I’ll be lifting the deciduous next spring for root pruning and some will go into grow boxes that will open up some more space around the pines.

 

[Adair M]

If you notice, There was ground cloth placed around the pines to suppress weeds. The benefit is not suppressing root competition, it’s the sunlight the weeds steal from the low branches. That’s also why the sacrifice leaders have their side branches pruned off. Sunlight can penetrate down and keep the low (keeper) branches alive.

Deciduous trees planted amongst the pines would also tend to shade out the low pine branches. The sooner you can remove them, the better.

 

[AndyJ]

If you notice, There was ground cloth placed around the pines to suppress weeds. The benefit is not suppressing root competition, it’s the sunlight the weeds steal from the low branches. That’s also why the sacrifice leaders have their side branches pruned off. Sunlight can penetrate down and keep the low (keeper) branches alive.

Deciduous trees planted amongst the pines would also tend to shade out the low pine branches. The sooner you can remove them, the better.

OK @Adair M moving out the deciduous will need to be a priority. I didn’t realise that sunlight was that important. I mean I obviously know it’s important for photosynthesis but to the degree of smothering weeds is a surprise

 

[Adair M]

OK @Adair M moving out the deciduous will need to be a priority. I didn’t realise that sunlight was that important. I mean I obviously know it’s important for photosynthesis but to the degree of smothering weeds is a surprise

On pines? It’s THE most important thing to have successful pines. Think about it for a second. I live in the Southeast, and our native pines, the loblolly, grow in tall stands. They’re great for making telephone poles. 60 feet tall, no low branches, and just tufts of foliage at the top.

Now, ask yourself... how did they get this way? They grow tall to catch the sun. Each one is trying to out-compete it’s neighbor. Where’s the sun? Straight up. As they grow UP, the high foliage of themselves and the neighboring trees shades out the lower branches. No sun, and the low branches can’t make sugars. The low branches die off, and fall off.

In a forest situation, the lack of low branches is normal. But, for bonsai, that’s not what we want, is it?

Consider a lone loblolly pine growing in a field by itself. In this situation, sun does strike the low branches, and they survive. The tree grows to be what we call a “formal upright”. A good place to see such trees is in a cemetery. Or perhaps a golf course.

 

[bwaynef]

Consider a lone loblolly pine growing in a field by itself. In this situation, sun does strike the low branches, and they survive. The tree grows to be what we call a “formal upright”. A good place to see such trees is in a cemetery. Or perhaps a golf course.

The Eisenhower tree for instance.