What to do with these Dawn Redwoods.....

[Attila Soos]

Greetings Attila,
While I adjust my hockey helmet let me just say that your always full of surprises and definitely one that is hard to get a handle on.

As I get older, I am worried that I am getting woefully predictable. So your comment about me being full of surprises fills me with delight, to say the least. You've just made my day, but I knew I can count on you.

By the way, I would have never made my comments on the redwood, if it was somebody other than you to comment on. You are one of the very, very few people whom I trust that can take my remarks in the spirit they were made. I can count on one hand the number of people I enjoy exchanging ideas with, as much as I do with you.

For the "NORM" no argument from me its simple and safe. I also appreciate your geographical local to these trees in nature and how your mental image must be cemented in place.

Well, this tree is very versatile in its ability to survive. Here in Southern California, I've seen many fine specimens. I have one that has grown into a four inch trunk in 5 years, so they love it here. But when I lived in Vancouver, British Columbia, they thrived over there as well, they were planted all over the place in that city.
So, I've seen many mature specimens, but what I have not seen, is a very old one. A tree in the post-mature stage, as Robert Steven puts it. I would love to see an ancient one, since that would be the real inspiration for me.

However, for a guy who is pretty articulate about art and its concepts, I am surprised to say the least. Is there no room in your imagination to use a specific piece of material to create a image unrelated to what it looks like in nature. Surely you have junipers...well....you know where I'm going and if not we can revisit Collecting Trees from Nature for Bonsai though I prefer not to.

You finding it repulsive is your choice, nothing wrong with that, its your choice. However playing to a trees other attributes other than its trunk and how it can be presented is worth the effort to explore.

A good case in point would be my wisteria that was presented in the pot contest a few years ago. Go here for a refresher. In that thread Bill V stated I respect Bill very much and to him this was appropriate approach based on his personal experience. However there was another way to highlight a non trunk feature in the same way with out pigeon holing a tree into a specific style by extending the branches letting the racines cascade downward right outside the lip of the pot.

There is definitely room for imagination to shape a tree in any form. That's why I tried to emphasize in my post that what I said, is only my personal taste. I am very reluctant to call something "right" or "wrong" in bonsai, knowing how diverging peoples' preference can be. So, no, there is nothing "wrong" with shaping a redwood with a curvy trunk. Wit regards to Bill V.'s comments, I completely agree with you: there must be more than one way to skin a rabbit.

But I have no problem expressing my disdain or dislike when I see a bonsai that triggers such a reaction. After all, it's my personal feeling I am talking about, and you wouldn't want me to lie about it, just to please someone. When I show a tree to somebody, I want honest comments. So does everyone else here on this forum.

Returning to the redwood, the dislike of a wavy or curvy trunk on a redwood happens on a gut level. I can't really control it. I could try to tell myself: "Attila, you have to like this tree, because in art we can do whatever we like", but I don't think that meditating a few minutes on why should I like it, would do the trick.
I suspect that my reaction has to do with credibility: I know redwoods, I know how they grow, and I can't pretend that I don't.

A bonsai artist has to trick the viewer into "believing a story that the bonsai conveys to the viewer". Bonsai to me is more than just being a pretty or decorative piece: it expresses a mood, feeling, or moment in time that has its foundation in a story. This story can be a real story (inspired by nature), but can also be a fictional one. If the image in front of me seems false, I will dislike it. It doesn't have to copy reality, but it has to make the impression that there is a story behind it. This "story" can be a fantastic story, a science fiction story, a surreal story, a fairy tale, or a naturalistic one, it doesn't matter. But it has to be a good story that I can relate to.

It's not a matter whether we can bend a trunk or not. It's a matter of the end result appearing genuine. And this is always subjective to the viewer.A redwood with a wavy trunk is not genuine to ME, unless it is presented in a context that can justify its wavy-ness. On the other hand, it can appear genuine to YOU, if you have no idea about real redwoods.

You've mentioned using junipers....
This is an important point: why is it OK for me to use junipers in various forms that do not follow their true nature, while I don't do the same with redwoods??
I think there is a very good reason for that. It has to do with the overall appearance and character of the species. In bonsai, as we know, each species has a character, or a "personality".

Some species have a very wild and strong character. They are very hard to "tame", and you can tell this right away, when you work with them. For this exact reason, many bonsaists call them "difficult", and stay away from them. The redwood family is one of these.

Other species have an easily malleable, flexible nature. They easily respond to any bonsai technique. Juniper is the typical example, and this is why it is so popular. It also lends itself to miniaturization, since the needles or scales are so small. With the juniper, you can suggest the image of a pine, spruce, fir, etc.. that's because it has small needles that can suggest the foliage of any other conifer. It is very versatile this way.

On the other hand, a redwood can hardly suggest anything other than a redwood, due to its peculiar foliage, growing habit, and overall nature. This is the big difference between a juniper and a redwood. A juniper can pose for many things. A redwood cannot.

I thought your first post succinctly expressed your thoughts ...but since you put it out here

You can't have ever lived in the tundra where I do...other wise you'd appreciate a Rotty as a lapdog

You are right, I would probably keep him in my bed most of the time.

Finally I would say that this is hardly an "S" shape as I'm familiar with. Sure you haven't been sipping on the water can? Though a 2D image can be deceiving when snapped at random.

Attila rest assured that this isn't the norm. I grow these and when you see them in the field lined up like toy soldiers ram rod straight row after row you tilt your head and think to yourself .... I wonder if

Yes, I was oversimplyfying, using the S-word to make the point. But it has a lot of curves, for sure.
I can see that after having so many straight ones, you might as well experiment with something else.

It is not the existence of curves that bothers me, but the nature of curves: they are too smooth. If you replace them with more jagged ones, suggesting sudden changes of direction, the picture becomes more genuine. A smooth curve has to do with the nature of the species: a species that can grow in a meandering fashion. A jagged curve suggests a sudden event (or series of events) or accident that interfered in the life of the tree, while the tree maintains its strong character and individuality.

Boy, this was a long post, sorry for that. I've filled my quota for this week.
But it was fun, thanks for being a good sport!

For Ryan,

Forgive me for taking up so much space in your thread, hopefully you have the answer you were looking for, from Tom.

 

[Bill S]

Excellant discourse gentlemen, Thank You.

Good view from all.

Well Ryan after that we are all going to wait to see what happens, have fun.

 

[Redwood Ryan]

Not a problem everyone. Don't worry about taking up space. I'm just extremely nervous to do this.

 

[Redwood Ryan]

If you plan to fuse the trunks, delay the trunk chops and hard pruning.

In the future, though, these trees are not only too tall, but one appears to be pushing a lot of clusterd branching all along the trunk --especially at the top. Not unnusual with fast growers like Dawn Redwoods.

However, if left alone, all those branches developing from the same spots will cause swelling. Pick the best positioned in a cluster eliminate the remainder.

I'd trunk chop these when the time comes, at least halfway down and grow on a new apex that would wind up being only a few inches of extension...

So, you would chop after the joining of the trunks correct?

 

[Tachigi]

Thanks for the reply Attila. As always its fun getting insight from another. I agree mostly with what you say and appreciate your honesty. I will keep your thoughts tucked in the back of my cranium as I tinker with this tree.

Yep, that's me.
I just find it repulsive to see them styled with curvy trunks (until someone's work convinces me otherwise, which I have yet to see). It's like trying to train a Rotweiler to be a lapdog: you can do it but it's not a pretty sight .

Hopefully a few years down the road I'll bring this one back up for review and see if I can't convince you otherwise or see if your gag reflex is still in good working order

Sorry Ryan didn't mean to get long winded in your thread, and good luck with your trees.


Once again its been a HOOT!

 

[Redwood Ryan]

Oh it's not a problem. You guys are the ones helping me. But can anyone answer me questions from above?

P.S. I got lost with what you guys were talking about long ago. I have the attention span of a gnat

Ryan

 

[Anonymous User]

Inspiration?

1) http://www.skidmore.edu/gis/research/metasequoia/Metasequoia.htm Excellent reading!

2) www.botany.org/bsa/psb/2002/psb48-4.html Dawn Redwood, (Metasequoia glyptostroboides.) "This tree is one of the original trees grown from the first seed collected in China after living members of this species was discovered in 1941."

3) http://community.livejournal.com/newport_native



Will

 

[Tachigi]

But can anyone answer me questions from above?

Ryan

Ryan fuse it first if that is what you want to do. Let it grow as is so the trees energy will be focused on the graft. Once it is fused or is well on its way next year or the following then do your cut.

 

[Redwood Ryan]

Inspiration?

1) http://www.skidmore.edu/gis/research/metasequoia/MetaStory.htm Excellent reading!

2) www.botany.org/bsa/psb/2002/psb48-4.html Dawn Redwood, (Metasequoia glyptostroboides.) "This tree is one of the original trees grown from the first seed collected in China after living members of this species was discovered in 1941."

3) http://community.livejournal.com/newport_native



Will

Oh I love looking at those pictures Will. Thanks for posting them! I wish I could somehow do that, but it takes a long while I believe.

Ryan fuse it first if that is what you want to do. Let it grow as is so the trees energy will be focused on the graft. Once it is fused or is well on its way next year or the following then do your cut.

I really want to fuse it, I'm just not a fan of cutting in zig-zag lines with a saw. The part that scares me the most is that I may kill these trees.

 

[Attila Soos]

So, you would chop after the joining of the trunks correct?

It will work either way.
But the two trunks will fuse together faster if you join them first. Then grow them together for a few year. Then chop.

The reason is that if you chop first, the growth will be checked for a while, before it resumes full speed. So the fusion will take longer.

P.S.: I posted the same time with Tom, but it looks like we said the same thing.

 

[Anonymous User]

Oh I love looking at those pictures Will. Thanks for posting them! I wish I could somehow do that, but it takes a long while I believe.

Remember, none of the trees shown are older than 68 years.


Hard to believe, isn't it?




Will

 

[Redwood Ryan]

Oh yes. That is pretty ridiculous.

 

[Tachigi]

Will, great report from GIS...great link thanks. Though I was shocked to learn that Jersey was the most suitable spot to grow Redwoods in the US ... that blew my mind.

Maybe if were quite Attila won't notice

 

[rockm]

While Dawn redwood is related to the California and Western Redwoods, it (and those trees too) are also related to Bald cypress. Dawn redwood is easily confused with Bald cypress in that the foliage not only looks almost exactly the same, both DR and BC are deciduous conifers and produces fluted buttressing at their base. BC is also the Eastern equivalent of california redwood species--some BC are as old as the oldest California redwoods and are huge (although certainly not as big as the Western species).

I think Dawn Redwood is closer to BC in growth habits and overall constitution than it is to the western redwood species. DR is a very vigorous grower, can take aggressive pruning and root pruning, is tolerant of many soils (but prefers damp soil as BC does), and is remarkably cold hardy to Zone 5b (as is Bald cypress)-both california redwoods are hardy to only Zone 7 or 8.

I think all that means that DR can be treated in much the same way as BC as bonsai. I would suggest looking at how BC can be adapted to a number of styles, from conical to flat top and all points between as a possible guide to how your trees might be developed.

 

[Attila Soos]

I did not realize how "muscular" the trunks of the dawn redwood can become. Full of buldging live veins. None of its other relatives have such a feature, except may be the bald cypress, but the BC has those "flutes" that look very different.

I've decided that I will try to replicate those "muscles" on my DR's. So, they are all going back into the ground, even the ones that already have large trunks. I would estimate at least ten more years.

I suspect that the secret to developing those muscles, has to be in growing large branches, as close to the ground as possible. Growing large branches, combined with letting the surface roots grow very long, should do the trick. When there is a strong low branch, it seems to draw a lot of water from the underlying root, so the bark starts swelling.

Until now, I focused on developing larg trunks, through a succession of trunk chops, without paying too much attention to the branches. This thread made me realize that doing that was a big mistake. Yes, I have a large trunk, but no character. Those large branches are vital to developing the spectacular trunks that we see on the old speciments.

The old school of thought "first build the trunk and then worry about the branches" seems to take a beating here, in my view.

 

[rockm]

"did not realize how "muscular" the trunks of the dawn redwood can become. Full of buldging live veins. None of its other relatives have such a feature, except may be the bald cypress, but the BC has those "flutes" that look very different."

The fluted ridges are only one type of basal growth BC are capable of. Depending on a given tree's local growing condition, it can develop growth that looks EXACTLY like these old Dawn Redwoods. Alot of bc growth is highly localized and highly variable. There are a lot of different kinds of knee growth too.

In my experience with Bald cypress, there is a direct link to a branch above and large root flare below. Big basal trunk ridges develop as a branch directly above them becomes a dominant grower--remove the branch linked to the ridge and the ridge mostly stops growing.

A long way of saying what Attila just did--Allowing a branch to grow unpruned will probably produce corresponding root base swelling...

 

[Attila Soos]

The fluted ridges are only one type of basal growth BC are capable of. Depending on a given tree's local growing condition, it can develop growth that looks EXACTLY like these old Dawn Redwoods. Alot of bc growth is highly localized and highly variable....

Interesting, looking at those pattern, I noticed one DR that had flutes just like a BC. So, you may be right, those patterns can vary, depending on growing conditions.

 

[rockm]

BC or DR?

http://www.livingmemorialsproject.net/toolbox/PLANT/HEALING_TREES/redwood.htm
http://www.dawnredwood.org/

See image in left margin here:
http://www.biologie.uni-hamburg.de/b-online/earle/cu/me/index.htm

to see mature image of this species in native habitat.

 

[Redwood Ryan]

Oh I know! It is incredible just how massive and incredible looking these trees can get. I love them.

 

[Redwood Ryan]

Well it's time for repotting the trees. I still believe this project is a bit too advanced for me. I think it will be hard to cut into the trunks and make them so that they fit. Can I plant the 2 trees together this year, then next year, when I'm more advanced and confident, cut the trees and combine them? I really do not want to kill these trees. I repotted one of them already. The second one is still needing a repot. Thanks everyone. Pics of the huge rootball to come later.