What Ume seeds do I need to recreate this?

[Mr. Monday]

This is the most beautiful Bonsai tree I have ever seen. Where can I find the Omoi-no-mama seeds I need to recreate this beautiful tree? It's going to take 100 yrs. to recreate so might as well start the process now.

 

[MobiusKB]

Prunus mume 'Omoi-no-mama'

 

[Mr. Monday]

Prunus mume 'Omoi-no-mama'

Yep, where can I buy seeds for this particular type? Seems like there are a bunch of different types of Prunus mume, some with bigger blossoms, I need the smaller blossoms. Sorry if it's a stupid question I'm new.

 

[Melospiza]

Yep, where can I buy seeds for this particular type? Seems like there are a bunch of different types of Prunus mume, some with bigger blossoms, I need the smaller blossoms. Sorry if it's a stupid question I'm new.

Named cultivars like this tend to be propagated from cuttings, not seeds. The seeds would only have half the genetic material from the cultivar you like; the other half is from the other parent, so you won't get the flower and trunk characteristics you like. Looks like Camellia Forest Nursery used to sell them (http://www.camforest.com/Omoi_no_mama_p/ts-pruomoi1g.htm) but they are out of stock now.

I would be wary of ebay and other sellers who claim to have seeds of the cultivars you are looking for.

 

[Paulpash]

Why start with seed when you can buy a more established tree?

 

[Mr. Monday]

Named cultivars like this tend to be propagated from cuttings, not seeds. The seeds would only have half the genetic material from the cultivar you like; the other half is from the other parent, so you won't get the flower and trunk characteristics you like. Looks like Camellia Forest Nursery used to sell them (http://www.camforest.com/Omoi_no_mama_p/ts-pruomoi1g.htm) but they are out of stock now.

I would be wary of ebay and other sellers who claim to have seeds of the cultivars you are looking for.

This is good info, thank you. I will contact Cam Forest to see if they will be restocking. Is the one you linked a cutting or a seed? Just to clarify, a cutting from any Prunus mume will do? Or do I need a cutting from a specific Prunus mume? If I need a cutting from the one pictured, that will be very difficult to arrange.

 

[Mr. Monday]

Why start with seed when you can buy a more established tree?

Sorry, I'm a bit of a newbie. I did some searching around and found some trees on ebay that sold between $600-$2000, which is fine, that is well within budget and shaves years off the time to achieve the desired result. The thing holding me back was that the branches and blossoms looked completely different. It was probably because they were younger trees but the branches weren't winding and fluid like the one pictured. Is that look achieved through careful wiring? All the ones I saw for sale had straight branches and larger blossoms. It seems like a very difficult tree to find in the US.

 

[Paulpash]

Sorry, I'm a bit of a newbie. I did some searching around and found some trees on ebay that sold between $600-$2000, which is fine, that is well within budget and shaves years off the time to achieve the desired result. The thing holding me back was that the branches and blossoms looked completely different. It was probably because they were younger trees but the branches weren't winding and fluid like the one pictured. Is that look achieved through careful wiring? All the ones I saw for sale had straight branches and larger blossoms. It seems like a very difficult tree to find in the US.

I meant do a halfway house. Ume aren't the easiest deciduous tree to care for and shelling out that much for a beginner isn't recommended - too many things can conspire to kill it, eg watering, soil mix, positioning etc. If you are in the US why not get a smaller tree / raw stock plant from Brent at evergreengardenworks.com that you can grow on yourself ?

You save years and don't break the bank. You can learn how it reacts & maybe invest in something more substantial when you know you can keep it thriving long term?

 

[just.wing.it]

Don't worry about seeds...how many decades do you have left on Earth?
The Ume pictured has probably been cared for by several generations of bonsai artists.

Go with the young plant, create an image that pleases you, then try to keep it alive!
Good luck on your journey!

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Contact @Brent from Evergreen Gardenworks. He has this cultivar listed as “sold out”, but he will run a waiting list if it’s a cultivar he’s still propagating.
http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/prunus.htm
Who knows, maybe he has a stock plant he’s ready to sell that is closer in age to the one in your photo. That tree is from the Omyia Bonsai museum, and while it’s nice it appears to be in declining health. There are twin trunk ume out there I like far more.

 

[rockm]

Sorry, I'm a bit of a newbie. I did some searching around and found some trees on ebay that sold between $600-$2000, which is fine, that is well within budget and shaves years off the time to achieve the desired result. The thing holding me back was that the branches and blossoms looked completely different. It was probably because they were younger trees but the branches weren't winding and fluid like the one pictured. Is that look achieved through careful wiring? All the ones I saw for sale had straight branches and larger blossoms. It seems like a very difficult tree to find in the US.

Taking such a big financial chance on your first bonsai is like flushing your $$ down the drain. You will more than likely kill it. This is a hard truth of bonsai. The first few trees a new person gets inevitably die or are severely damaged. If you don't understand the basics of care--watering and overwintering in particular-- the chances of killing a new tree increase.

One of the basics is how to construct a branch. The branches on the tree you have in the picture didn't just happen naturally. They have been skillfully hard pruned over decades to achieve the effect you like. The new trees you're looking at have the potential for such branching, but only in the hands of someone who knows how to produce it. You can learn those skills, it's just not going to happen in a short time.

Such naturalistic effects in bonsai are mostly produced by their owners, not nature (unless you're working with trees collected from the wild--which isn't the case here). Bonsai is like a time-lapse magic trick that requires the magician to understand and master the technical things that make the trick appear natural and effortless.

All This sounds negative, but it's just realistic.

You have to learn to walk before you can run a marathon.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Good advice above. Please add location to profile for better future advice.

 

[Melospiza]

This is good info, thank you. I will contact Cam Forest to see if they will be restocking. Is the one you linked a cutting or a seed? Just to clarify, a cutting from any Prunus mume will do? Or do I need a cutting from a specific Prunus mume? If I need a cutting from the one pictured, that will be very difficult to arrange.

Like I said, you cannot get a seed that will produce a Omoi-no-mama plant. The Omoi-no-mama variety was developed by chance or design in someone's nursery. From that original plant, cuttings were made and sold, and many more cuttings were made over time from these cuttinggs. Any seeds that these cutting produced would not be a true Omoi-no-mama, since they have 50% of their genes from another type of Prunus ume. The website I linked would therefore be selling you a cutting.

And yes, please do not shell out so much money for an online purchase. It is far better to buy a young cutting, often just a twig, from an online or brick-and-mortar nursery and grow it out over the years.

 

[shinmai]

A few suggestions, just one guy's opinions....
You will never be able to replicate the truly exquisite tree you're in love with. In fact, I would venture to say that only a tiny fraction of the people on this forum would be capable of doing so, and even they would need decades to do so. It's like I'd like to sleep with Charlize Theron, too, but that ain't happening, so what's Plan B? If you think it over and decide that it's things that make flowers that floats your personal kayak, you've narrowed your focus and eliminated a large body of species-related knowledge you don't need to acquire [conifers, for instance].
As you acquire knowledge in the fundamental skills necessary to be reasonably successful--soil, watering, pruning, wiring, disease management, and so on, do so on cheap material that won't make you want to slit your wrists when you kill it. Right now is a great time to get interesting material, dirt cheap from the flowering shrubs section of garden centers, Home Depot, etc. Many of them in the bigger pots are old enough to have a decent trunk and some potential to work with.
If you have a local bonsai club, join it. Go to a few meetings and listen, and you'll pretty quickly figure out who knows what they're talking about, and who has knowledge in your area of interest. Take advantage of any classes they have to offer, even if it's a little off your chosen path--you always learn something you didn't know, and you make friends who share your affliction for little trees.
In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with buying a tree on eBay or the internet, with some caveats:

• Only buy 'the tree in the picture is the one you actually get' deals. If you spend some time surfing the vendors, you will see certain stock photos repeated over and over. Chances are about 90% that the vendor is reselling stock they bought from Brussel's--in which case you will need to repot it instantly upon arrival, and it will look like it was pruned with a machete.
• Only buy from people who take returns.
• Before buying, communicate to the seller exactly what you're looking for. For example, Brent at Evergreen is a tremendous source, but if you let him know what you want he'll pick something appropriate, or tell you to wait until he has what you want. If you're not specific, he can only guess.

I used to race cars, and somebody once told me that if you can't afford to light it on fire, don't take it on the track. Along the same lines, as the previous posters noted, at this stage if you buy an expensive tree, you stand a high probability of killing it. Wait until you know you won't be lighting it on fire.

 

[Mr. Monday]

I meant do a halfway house. Ume aren't the easiest deciduous tree to care for and shelling out that much for a beginner isn't recommended - too many things can conspire to kill it, eg watering, soil mix, positioning etc. If you are in the US why not get a smaller tree / raw stock plant from Brent at evergreengardenworks.com that you can grow on yourself ?

You save years and don't break the bank. You can learn how it reacts & maybe invest in something more substantial when you know you can keep it thriving long term?

Thanks for the link, I'll check it out.

Contact @Brent from Evergreen Gardenworks. He has this cultivar listed as “sold out”, but he will run a waiting list if it’s a cultivar he’s still propagating.
http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/prunus.htm
Who knows, maybe he has a stock plant he’s ready to sell that is closer in age to the one in your photo. That tree is from the Omyia Bonsai museum, and while it’s nice it appears to be in declining health. There are twin trunk ume out there I like far more.
View attachment 200556View attachment 200555View attachment 200554

Yep, I know where it's from, I would love to go there. I've seen all three of the others you posted and in my opinion they aren't nearly as beautiful as the one I posted. I love the asymmetry and the snaking fluid branches that are relatively sparse compared to the ones you posted. How do I achieve the twin trunk look?

Taking such a big financial chance on your first bonsai is like flushing your $$ down the drain. You will more than likely kill it. This is a hard truth of bonsai. The first few trees a new person gets inevitably die or are severely damaged. If you don't understand the basics of care--watering and overwintering in particular-- the chances of killing a new tree increase.

One of the basics is how to construct a branch. The branches on the tree you have in the picture didn't just happen naturally. They have been skillfully hard pruned over decades to achieve the effect you like. The new trees you're looking at have the potential for such branching, but only in the hands of someone who knows how to produce it. You can learn those skills, it's just not going to happen in a short time.

Such naturalistic effects in bonsai are mostly produced by their owners, not nature (unless you're working with trees collected from the wild--which isn't the case here). Bonsai is like a time-lapse magic trick that requires the magician to understand and master the technical things that make the trick appear natural and effortless.

All This sounds negative, but it's just realistic.

You have to learn to walk before you can run a marathon.

I have been caring for reef aquariums for 8 yrs now and planted aquariums for 4. With both you could say I jumped right in. Right off the bat I spent $1.5k on corals for my first reef aquarium and I have never had a single one die on me. Why? Because I did 100's of hours of research in books and forums before I "jumped right in". When I thought I was just looking for seeds I was ready to purchase immediately and then learn while they grew, but now that I'm looking at grown trees I would do many hours of research before pulling the trigger on one. I'm a member of BAR and plan to join BSSF once I have a tree I'm working on.

Good advice above. Please add location to profile for better future advice.

Done.

A few suggestions, just one guy's opinions....
You will never be able to replicate the truly exquisite tree you're in love with. In fact, I would venture to say that only a tiny fraction of the people on this forum would be capable of doing so, and even they would need decades to do so. It's like I'd like to sleep with Charlize Theron, too, but that ain't happening, so what's Plan B? If you think it over and decide that it's things that make flowers that floats your personal kayak, you've narrowed your focus and eliminated a large body of species-related knowledge you don't need to acquire [conifers, for instance].
As you acquire knowledge in the fundamental skills necessary to be reasonably successful--soil, watering, pruning, wiring, disease management, and so on, do so on cheap material that won't make you want to slit your wrists when you kill it. Right now is a great time to get interesting material, dirt cheap from the flowering shrubs section of garden centers, Home Depot, etc. Many of them in the bigger pots are old enough to have a decent trunk and some potential to work with.
If you have a local bonsai club, join it. Go to a few meetings and listen, and you'll pretty quickly figure out who knows what they're talking about, and who has knowledge in your area of interest. Take advantage of any classes they have to offer, even if it's a little off your chosen path--you always learn something you didn't know, and you make friends who share your affliction for little trees.
In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with buying a tree on eBay or the internet, with some caveats:

• Only buy 'the tree in the picture is the one you actually get' deals. If you spend some time surfing the vendors, you will see certain stock photos repeated over and over. Chances are about 90% that the vendor is reselling stock they bought from Brussel's--in which case you will need to repot it instantly upon arrival, and it will look like it was pruned with a machete.
• Only buy from people who take returns.
• Before buying, communicate to the seller exactly what you're looking for. For example, Brent at Evergreen is a tremendous source, but if you let him know what you want he'll pick something appropriate, or tell you to wait until he has what you want. If you're not specific, he can only guess.

I used to race cars, and somebody once told me that if you can't afford to light it on fire, don't take it on the track. Along the same lines, as the previous posters noted, at this stage if you buy an expensive tree, you stand a high probability of killing it. Wait until you know you won't be lighting it on fire.

I'm in a financial place where spending $1k on a tree that ends up dying wouldn't be much of a setback. However I definitely don't feel comfortable spending $15k on a tree closer in age to the one pictured until I have a solid amount of experience. I do have decades, and I do plan on recreating this look. After thinking it over Ive realized that what floats my personal kayak is the aged twin trunk covered in moss that ends in delicate, asymmetrical, snaking, meandering, fluid branches that end in petite pink and white blossoms during spring. A deciduous tree that shows the passing of time beautifully.

 

[Saddler]

The big difference between coral and Bonsai is that you are trying to create the perfect conditions for corals. In Bonsai you are trying to adapt to the conditions you have, day to day, month to month. I dealt a little bit with Corals and they are pretty straight forward. Salinity, temp, light, ph are all easy to control in a house. Out doors you are at Mother Nature’s mercy. I have hundreds of hours of research under my belt and I still occasionally kill trees. Particularly new to me species.

My suggestion is Buy a couple cheap prunus mume and keep them alive for a few years, doing root work and wiring/pruning while you look for that tree you love. You will know in 2-3 years if mume is right for you.

 

[shinmai]

As a former aquarium addict, I congratulate you. I was at one time running nine tanks, with a 125 reef with polyps, mushrooms, and soft corals, and all five species of dwarf lionfish. I hit the wall with sponges though—one microscopic blip in ammonia and you’re farked. At the same time I had a 37 with soft black Hawaiian sand, housing a 14” splendid toadfish and a 12” stonefish. The dwarf lions are bee stings, the toad sends you to the ER, but the stonefish can send you to the morgue.
Hard corals take you from a hobby to a DIY graduate degree in water chemistry.
Back to trees....don’t rule out your local landscape nurseries. Had I not hit my spousally-imposed ceiling of 50 pots, I would be proud tree daddy to a couple of pink flowering almonds with trunk bases the size of your wrist. Go out back and walk among the planted trees—you may find some amazing fruit trees with massive trunk bases.

 

[shinmai]

I just saw that you updated to show you’re in SF. I know it’s a hike, but if you’re ever in Sacramento you owe it to yourself to visit Yuzo Maruyama’s nursery. His assortment of wild-collected junipers and pines is wonderful, but the real glory of the place is the satsuki azaleas. When your time is right, he may be able to hook you up with a grower who has the kind of tree you’re looking for.
He asked me where I was from, and when I said “Wisconsin”, he looked incredulous, and asked, “You can have satsuki in Wisconsin?” I said, I have a heated greenhouse and he said, “Good luck with that.”
We’ll see.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I've seen all three of the others you posted and in my opinion they aren't nearly as beautiful as the one I posted. I love the asymmetry and the snaking fluid branches that are relatively sparse compared to the ones you posted. How do I achieve the twin trunk look?

We’ll, it’s good that you know what you like and why. To get a twin trunk, you need two trunks, or to combine two teees, or graft. If you’re starting from seed, cut down the first shoot down to 2 nodes, and let them both grow to form 2 trunks, wire the trunks for movement (carefully, they’re brittle) in year one, and in year two, start to let them grow wild.

You can get a large ume trunk in 10-12 years, while doing your 100s of hours of research to stay a step ahead. This one is 10 years old from seed and is about 3” in diameter and chopped down to 10” tall. I’ve done multiple chops which have slowed down the trunk thickening, but has resulted in a lot of trunk movement and taper. As you know, having an interesting trunk will be better than simply a big one.

 

[rockm]

Thanks for the link, I'll check it out.

Yep, I know where it's from, I would love to go there. I've seen all three of the others you posted and in my opinion they aren't nearly as beautiful as the one I posted. I love the asymmetry and the snaking fluid branches that are relatively sparse compared to the ones you posted. How do I achieve the twin trunk look?

I have been caring for reef aquariums for 8 yrs now and planted aquariums for 4. With both you could say I jumped right in. Right off the bat I spent $1.5k on corals for my first reef aquarium and I have never had a single one die on me. Why? Because I did 100's of hours of research in books and forums before I "jumped right in". When I thought I was just looking for seeds I was ready to purchase immediately and then learn while they grew, but now that I'm looking at grown trees I would do many hours of research before pulling the trigger on one. I'm a member of BAR and plan to join BSSF once I have a tree I'm working on.

Done.

I'm in a financial place where spending $1k on a tree that ends up dying wouldn't be much of a setback. However I definitely don't feel comfortable spending $15k on a tree closer in age to the one pictured until I have a solid amount of experience. I do have decades, and I do plan on recreating this look. After thinking it over Ive realized that what floats my personal kayak is the aged twin trunk covered in moss that ends in delicate, asymmetrical, snaking, meandering, fluid branches that end in petite pink and white blossoms during spring. A deciduous tree that shows the passing of time beautifully.

As pointed out by Brian, the tree you've fallen in love with is in decline. It has weak growth and sparse flowers at the ends of long branches. Those are signs the tree is weakening and needs some rest and recuperation IN THE GROUND. Some trees need that after a long period in a container. The trees Brian posted are of trees that are of better quality and in better condition than the one you like. They would be better investments...just sayin'.

Joining a club is great, but don't you think that joining the club BEFORE you make such an investment might be a better idea? Clubs are a knowledgeable resource. Some members might even know where to find such stratospheric material (an Ume of the quality you're looking at is going to be north of $2,000 if you can locate it--importing one from Japan is probably the best way to get one of that quality. If you want to go that route, there are companies that can help you).

FWI, expect some eyerolls from people if you roll up to a club with a newly-purchased $2,000-$5,000 tree for them to help you with. They have definitely seen it before and have seen where it leads...

It's a bit delusional thinking that "thousands of hours" of reading books is the same as actually doing bonsai. FWI, more than a few bonsaiists are, or have been, aquarium enthusiasts. I'm one of those --had reef tanks for years and gave them up for bonsai. Let me say that bonsai isn't an aquarium... It tends to be a lot less technical and a lot more intuitive, artistically and horticulturally.