What's Going On With My Collected Fir?

Josh88

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This is a noble fir I collected after snow melt in early June with a very good sized root ball. Some of the needles at the tips got crispy and I have removed them, some areas are pushing nice new growth, and then some areas the needles Further in on branches have turned brown but are still very firmly attached. Any idea what may be causing this browning and if there is anything I can do to better care for this tree? Not too much info found on this species so any thoughts are much appreciated.IMG_1042.JPG IMG_1523.JPG IMG_1524.JPG
 

Josh88

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It's mostly in the soil that I collected with it, surrounded then with pumice. The collected soil seems to be holding water very well, to the point where I have been concerned about over watering. The fence and house in the first picture are on the west side, so they help block the late day sun, but it's heavy as hell and not too easy to move around. I could take it off the bench and try it on the ground by the fence so it is more shaded in the late day.
 

MichaelS

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You need to be extremely careful about using a well drained mix like pumice surrounding field soil. The drying rates are very different and you could set put situation where the original soil stays too wet and rots the roots. The water in the root ball will not drain into the pumice because it is held more tightly.
If you're going to remove the original soil it's better to use something fine that matches the field soil more closely and that way you will have similar drying and draining qualities and are better able to maintain and even moisture content throughout the pot.
 

VAFisher

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I have no advice on the browning issue but I hope it doesn't turn out to be anything serious. This is a swell tree.
 

Josh88

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You need to be extremely careful about using a well drained mix like pumice surrounding field soil. The drying rates are very different and you could set put situation where the original soil stays too wet and rots the roots. The water in the root ball will not drain into the pumice because it is held more tightly.
If you're going to remove the original soil it's better to use something fine that matches the field soil more closely and that way you will have similar drying and draining qualities and are better able to maintain and even moisture content throughout the pot.
I have tried to be very careful about watering the perimeter where the pumice is and the collected soil in the center very differently. The collected soil takes up most of the grow box, as I built the box to hold the root ball, so I have been watering the edges at a different frequency than the rest of the soil in the middle. I am hopeful that this will alleviate this problem. The area that I collected the tree is very unique and has a soil composition different than any I have encountered before. Would you recommend collecting extra soil from the area to surround the root ball for collecting here in the future?
 

Dav4

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Didn't you just have ridiculously high temps last week, like 100+ F? I'm thinking you've got sun damage made worse by a recently collected and compromised root system. Personally, I'd try to provide some shade for this one, particularly if it's going to be hot again.
 

Josh88

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Didn't you just have ridiculously high temps last week, like 100+ F? I'm thinking you've got sun damage made worse by a recently collected and compromised root system. Personally, I'd try to provide some shade for this one, particularly if it's going to be hot again.
The issue has been present since before our heat wave, but I'm sure the heat didn't help at all. Fortunately we are getting back to normal temps now and are expecting our first rain in 60 days this weekend, although they are expecting only .1 inches. I will build a shade cloth frame I can put up for it so I can give it some relief if we climb back up again.
 

Josh88

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Thank you all for your input and advice! Not knowing exactly what the problem is I will try to better control each of these issues and hopefully resolve the problem. This one is very special to me as it's my nicest collected material and I barely made it out of the forest with my body intact to get it home.
 

ghues

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Interesting tree and species....doesn't come this far north. Not sure about the tip needle death but overall it appears healthy and the interior needle browning appears to be the oldest needles which usually fall off anyways after a few years which was probably accelerated due to root dammed during collecting. Hopefully once it's recovered 2018-19) you'll get some back budding and use them to move the foliage pads closer to the trunk.
With yamadori of high elevation species I always mix in an organic (sifted SeaSoil) portion with the pumice and have high survival rates.
Good luck with this one.
 

AlainK

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Doesn't look too bad to me.

Nonsense Rascal I agree with :)

It's always stressful for a tree to be uprooted from its natural environment, and some species react better than others.

Perhaps just changing the orientation of the tree, which side gets most of the sun, can be of importance.

Spruce, especially when potted, tend to lose lower branches. The fact that it was transplanted in a different spot, with a different medium may have accentuated a natural phenomenon..

I'm pretty sure it will recover, and it's an excellent starter bonsai IMO.
 

Waltron

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awesome tree(s)! I've found fir to be rather finicky and tricky in a pot. I believ its known they do not like hot roots.. the wood box and pumice layers was a good call in that regard. its looking pretty good for an early June collection I think. do you have any new buds forming on branch ends? that would be a good sign. Ive found that while tricky in a pot, fir seem to grow just fine in the ground or raised bed. if it's health continues to deteriorate, you may want to take action by putting that whole box in the ground, and burying it, or even remove it from the box and plant it if you can do so without damaging the roots, but that is only if it starts to go south fast, you would have to do something. hopefully it will be just fine by closely monitoring the heat and sun exposure and manually checking the soil before watering.
 

BeebsBonsai

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Sunburn would make sense, but does the distribution of that coloring make sense for sunburn? I am asking more experienced members than me, merely wanting to point out that the affected foliage is low, and some of it even appears to be shaded by the canopy. Could it be that the most compromised roots are very weak after the collect, causing the ends of the branches they were connected with to lose turgidity at the tips? Just a thought and more of a request for people with more experience to comment on it.
 

BeebsBonsai

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Great tree by the way, lol. I sure hope you are planning to keep small stumps by the branches you cut off to reflect that natural look of spruces that lost lower branches. To me, that habit of having those slim twigs sticking off all along the trunk is one of the most interesting and iconic features of spruce in the wild. Just my 2 cents, and I am totally jelly you have such an opportunity to create that with this tree. When I have some more money to spend on bonsai in the future, I might just message you to see if you've had any collected specimen you'd want to sell. You are in the perfect location for spruce, and I love them.
 

wireme

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It's mostly in the soil that I collected with it, surrounded then with pumice. The collected soil seems to be holding water very well, to the point where I have been concerned about over watering. The fence and house in the first picture are on the west side, so they help block the late day sun, but it's heavy as hell and not too easy to move around. I could take it off the bench and try it on the ground by the fence so it is more shaded in the late day.

I just popped in seeing that @sorce tagged me. I've been busy, not much to to spend here.

Good advice and comments from others here already. At first I was agreeing that the the tree looks quite ok. Then I looked closer at the first pic. I only have the small phone screen but looks like this years extension growth is drooping? That's not good, doesn't necessarily mean the tree won't make it but not a great sign. As Waltron mentioned nice plump buds forming for next year will be the best indication that all is well. I think it probably is a good idea to drop it down to the ground for a bit more shade for now. Remember as well that while soil dense rootballs surrounded in pumice may hold more water than we like they can also become very dry even with daily watering. Sometimes once they start to dry water travels through the pumice quickly, around the rootball and does little to hydrate the soil interior. I try to keep a balance but if anything err on the side of too much watering. Occasional long deep repeated waterings or submersion. Sounds like yours is plenty moist but it's something to watch for.

As a side note and probably not relative to your tree. I'm finding it difficult to keep some of my collected spruce and fir hydrated well enough because the pumice gets so quickly colonized with mycorrhizae. You'd think it would have the opposite effect because spaces fill up and moisture retention increases but the stuff really slows percolation. Water sits on top and flows around, feels like lots of water has been given but little actually penetrates...And that is the pure pumice portion of soil within a couple months of collection. I came close to losing a few spruce a couple years back before figuring that out.

It might be a good idea to slowly expose an edge of the rootball. If there are new roots visible stop and leave it be. If not then chopstick into that rootball a little bit to get an idea of what the interior hydration levels really are.
 
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MichaelS

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I have tried to be very careful about watering the perimeter where the pumice is and the collected soil in the center very differently. The collected soil takes up most of the grow box, as I built the box to hold the root ball, so I have been watering the edges at a different frequency than the rest of the soil in the middle. I am hopeful that this will alleviate this problem. The area that I collected the tree is very unique and has a soil composition different than any I have encountered before. Would you recommend collecting extra soil from the area to surround the root ball for collecting here in the future?
Not necessarily. Using something that matches the original soil in texture is enough. If you can get into the root ball with a heavy sharpened stick and expose at least some of the roots so they come into contact with the new mix that would also help a bit. Then every 2 years you can slowly replace the whole lot with something better.
 

Josh88

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How is this tree doing?
I'm very sad to say that this one didn't make it. I can't say for sure why, as I collected a significant root ball with it, and the other fir I collected that day from the same area and of a similar size is doing fabulously. My best guess is that I took a pretty good fall while carrying this beast back to the van, and perhaps roots were ripped and damaged during that incident. I know I certainly was. I still have it's bones around in the garden as a reminder to take my time and learn my collecting lessons slowly, and not make my mistakes with the nicest trees I can find.
 

Djtommy

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That’s too bad, it was a nice tree.
I was hoping to see a nice recovery..
Good luck with the next collection
 
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